What if we had the chance to model empathetic listening in our schools and teach youth how to handle complicated emotions better?
Tune in as Adam J. Salgat, Leader of Curriculum Improvement & Development for Our Community Listens – Sarah Weisbarth, and Leader of Education Initiatives – Mike Desparrois discuss how getting these listening skills in the hands of teachers and administration will have a positive impact in shaping our youth to be empathetic listeners.
Mike also shares stories of his early teaching career and how listening helped him reach students with difficult backgrounds.
Episode recorded March 11, 2020.
AI-generated dictation of the podcast audio
Please note that this transcription was completed using AI software. Occasionally, unanticipated grammatical, syntax, homophones, and other interpretive errors are inadvertently transcribed by the software. Please excuse any errors that have escaped final proofreading.
Adam Salgat:
Hey listener, we would love it if you could take a quick moment to give our podcast a review on iTunes, Spotify, or leave us a message on our Facebook or LinkedIn pages. Hello and welcome to the Our Community Listens podcast. My name is Adam Salgat, and with me today are two very special guests. One of them our listeners know quite well, her name is Sarah Weisbarth, and she is the leader of Curriculum Improvement and Development for Our Community Listens. Welcome Sarah.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Always a pleasure to be here Adam.
Adam Salgat:
The other guys is joining us from Midland, Texas. His name is Mike Desparrois, and he is the Our Community Listens Leader of Education Initiatives. Mike, thank you so much for joining us.
Mike Desparrois:
Thank you, Adam. I appreciate the opportunity to be on today’s podcast.
Adam Salgat:
So Mike, can you tell me a little bit about your work as the Leader of Education for Our Community Listens?
Mike Desparrois:
Yeah, I’ll be happy to jump in and have that conversation. I’ve been with Our Community Listens now for about 10 months, and I am leading the idea of how are we going to get Our Community Listens, our communication skills training into the hands of educators, whether they be principals, administrators, paraprofessionals any type of staff that works in schools. And then also we are taking a unique and interesting look at how we can get this into higher ed with the different colleges in the universities as well.
Adam Salgat:
Mike, can you tell me a little bit about the importance of getting these skills in the hands of those that are working directly with youth?
Mike Desparrois:
Yeah, absolutely. That is a great question. When we take a look at the opportunity that we have with what we know we can accomplish with our communication skills training, and if we give it to those who are working directly with youth, and they’re able to practice and use the skill set from the three-day training, think of how much more powerful it is going to be for our students, as well as for the adults working with those students.
Adam Salgat:
That makes a lot of sense to me. And you mentioned in a prior conversation about when something tragic does take place in a school system, the impact that has not only on the students, but on the staff, is that something you’d want to touch on?
Mike Desparrois:
Yeah. So I don’t think that this is the and will be all answers for tragic situations or events that could happen at a school. But if schools are equipped with the communication skills trainings, if adults are able to go through it, they get how powerful it is to just have the ability to sit and listen and lead with empathy and be with students as they kind of reflect as what it is that’s going on in their schools.
Adam Salgat:
Sarah, can you touch a little bit on your experience with using these skills with youth?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Well, I’m just listening to Mike and I’m just really thinking about how we support organizations, how using the communication skills training helps an organization, helps a group of people feel like they’re connected to one another, feel like they can support one another, that they have communication skills to use effectively with one another. And it completely improves the environment with which people are working in.
And so I hear really what Mike is talking about is if we have an educational environment where the staff and the educators feel like they belong, that they’re working well as a team, that they’re using these skills well together, then it’s almost like they’re equipped to help students, whether it’s in a crisis situation, or maybe it’s just they’re struggling in their academics. We have that adults that can talk to, empathize, connect with students, with our youth in a way that helps them feel like they too belong to that supported system.
Mike Desparrois:
I understand this Adam. And our listeners can think back to teachers that they had, that they connected with at a deep level. Most likely they had a really strong sense of belonging inside that learning environment, inside that classroom. And it’s because that teacher did all kinds of things to make that student feel welcome, regardless of whatever labels or issues they come with. If you think about what you learned in communication skills training, it helps strengthen a student’s sense of belonging when they’re inside that learning environment. If I know I have a really good skill set now on how to listen, and what the importance is of listening, and how to lead with empathy, I’m going to have such a stronger sense of belonging for my kids, and they’re going to kind of want to be in that environment. And not only is the learning going to just progress and grow, but then also the environment with our kids inside that classroom as well.
Adam Salgat:
You mentioned in there that I may have examples. And I actually certainly do. I had a high school teacher that I took journalism all four years, and he was my teacher all four years. And by the time I graduated he really felt like that mentor figure, that father figure in some ways. And I ran into him just a couple of weeks ago at the grocery store, and he said he still has the letter that I wrote him when I graduated. And I hardly remember what’s in it to be honest, other than I’m sure I gushed over how awesome he was. But it is that sense of connection that I had.
Mike Desparrois:
Absolutely. It’s 100%, and Sarah pointed it out as well as you, that connection. The cool thing, the great thing, the thing that I love about communication skills training is it’s the actual tools to help you with connection with your kids, with your wife, with your husband, with your partner, with your friends, with your parents, and even with your own kids at home. And that’s such a powerful piece to this whole part.
I’m really excited to try to think about not just affecting one or two teachers on a campus, but how can we get on board with different campuses around the United States, and have them all trained in CST, whether they are a teacher in the classroom or a paraprofessional, which is a teacher’s aid, the school secretary, the folks that serve lunch, the librarian, the custodial staff, the principals, wouldn’t it be great if we had an entire campus on board with the skill set to build that strong sense of community, that strong sense of belonging, and that connection with people?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. I know for me as a parent Mike like that description just gives me a great sense of relief. Having a teenager in the school system right now, I just had a communication come out from our school system here in Michigan, talking about identifying staff within each of the schools that are equipped where our youth can go to when they’re having a problem, where something’s not going right for them. We’ve identified very specific staff members that are kind of that safe, equipped individual within our individual buildings to go to. Because kids need that connection, kids need someone that they just know that they can go talk to, and that they’ll listen.
Mike Desparrois:
Yeah, Sarah, I agree 100%. And I think in today’s day and age with social media, with smartphones, with the internet, we’re losing a lot of connection, and a lot of connection points as human beings. It’s really easy to get online, whether it be whatever type of social media that is popular at the moment. According to my teenage daughters, I’m like three social mediums behind, because I’m still in Facebook. But it’s really easy for me to place blame, it’s easy for me to make fun of, it’s easy for me to point out things that really affect people, and hide behind that because I’m not face-to-face with a person.
It was much different when I was growing up. And we need to be aware of that. And because that’s an issue, we need to start being smarter in saying, “How are we going to bring back human connection? And what does that mean?” If we’re leading and asking kids questions, if we’re telling them always our advice, if we’re trying to explain all these situations we’ve been through and they just need to listen to us, all we’re doing is role modeling the negative way to communicate. But if we have the skill set that shows us reflective listening and what really needs to be done, then guess what, kids are going to follow, and they’re going to end up doing the same thing. And that’s one of the most powerful pieces we can do. And I’m sure with your own son Sarah, since you’ve been using this in practice and this at home, you see those changes in him as well.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Oh yeah. Our podcast listeners hear a lot about my family and my household, because I think it’s just true that it’s putting the skills into practice. And what I’m envisioning as you talk about this, this is not like we’re going to ask educators ever to do a different set of curricula, or another core competency that they’re going to get tested on by their state credentialing agencies. We just want to equip them with ways to interact with one another and with the students that they serve, am I catching that right?
Mike Desparrois:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the quick turnaround and idea for you and I who have facilitated this class in different arenas is what people really realize when they come to class, regardless of whatever your work employment is. If it’s a school, if it’s a church, if it’s a hospital, if you own your own business, what people really find out and realize, is that I can take this skill set and I can apply it in most of the situations in my life. And if we take that same idea with the youth movement and with education, and in all the ways we touch youth, whether it be through Big Brothers Big Sisters, YMCA, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, basketball, whatever it might be, taking that same skill set and that idea, the more people we can work with, it’s just going to help out our kids. And most importantly, it’s just going to help out the next generation coming along.
So I think there’s a real important part to this. And you just brought it up is that how we apply what we’ve learned, that’s the biggest piece. And there’s a real understanding. And I love David [Vander Owen 00:00:11:53] says, who is kind of the father enrolled this class, and he says, “We’re chronically human.” I love that. And I love to have that vulnerability with students to be able to say, “Guess what, men I’ve just made a mistake and here’s what I should have done. And here’s why, because you deserve better.” We all make mistakes all the time. We’re not perfect. We’re not perfect teachers. We’re not perfect parents. But what do we do in those situations with the skill set that we have to not only improve relationships, but to also help our kids understand that they’re going to make mistakes, but then what are the tools that we’ve learned that we can help guide them with so that they don’t continue to make that same mistake and to place blame.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. I love that. So I know I just think about the stories I’ve shared multiple times in this medium of our podcasts of just the mistakes I’ve made, and the struggles I’ve had in applying the skills, but then also those successes of when we see it working. And so often when we teach the three-day class, we have parents saying, “How can I do this with my kids?” And my answer is generally like no different than I’m teaching you how to do it right now, you just have to adjust your perspective, whether you’re working with a five-year-old, a 10-year-old, or 15-year-old, or a 20-year-old on how you craft your message, and the bucket of words that you’re using, or maybe the specific skill at the specific moment that you’re using, but the skills are the skills. Do you have any way to help us picture why these skills matter in working with youth and that adult to youth component?
Mike Desparrois:
Yeah. Let me kind of do it through a story if I may, and I’m going to take like maybe a chapter out of my own current things. Things that I’ve learned from having two teenage daughters, as I grew from a facilitator into this role. It’s really interesting, because I think about my daughter’s one 17, her name is Avery [inaudible 00:14:05], and one’s fifteen and hers Delaney. And like any parent I want them to grow up to be the very best humans that they possibly can be.
And there’s times when people will tell me, “Oh my gosh, it was such a pleasure to have your daughter at our house the other day. It’s such a pleasure to hear how your daughter talks.” And you kind of beam with pride. Like all of us as parents, when we hear good things about our kids, we beam with pride. But then there’s also the situations where you think, “Okay, am I doing everything I can for my daughter to actually be the best person going forward? Because the behavior that was just displayed was nothing I hope that happens out in public.” Right?
Adam Salgat:
Yup.
Mike Desparrois:
And then what the class has taught me is as her dad, what role did I play in that negative behavior? And here’s where I’m going with that. If I can ask myself that, and if I can be vulnerable with myself and give myself the courage to really ask that question, here’s what often I find. Those things that I’ve done situationally that created a much more negative behavior, because of the way I asked it, or reacted in the moment of a situation, and oftentimes it’s not using the skill set that I learned.
Adam Salgat:
It’s very interesting to hear you say that, because with our four-year-old, I’m trying to build those same type of habits. So I look at it and think had I responded differently. I really love your question about what role did I play in that negative behavior? Had I approached it different would I have gotten a different response?
Mike Desparrois:
Yeah. And so it kind of goes back to what David says, like we’re chronically human. So we have to allow ourselves the grace to say, “I had a chronically human moment, and I’ve made a mistake.” But there’s a powerful piece to this. And the powerful learning lesson is, how am I going to go with my daughter? Or if I was a teacher in a teaching situation, go to that kid and say, “Guess what, I messed up, the way I reacted was wrong. I’m not teaching you anything by doing that. And here’s what I should’ve done instead.” That’s another way we can push out these skills to kids.
But we have this kind of thing or this idea. And I don’t really know where it ever started or where it came from, but it’s just like as adults, we should never admit when we’re wrong to kids. And I don’t know why that is, but if we want them to learn how to accept and build on these skills, we have to be really good at modeling it. But then also we don’t model it, how we fix that with them.
Adam Salgat:
Right. Absolutely.
Sarah Weisbarth:
There’s also this sense of like we have to fix kids. And in the environments where I’ve had the opportunity to be in classrooms with young people, I’m telling you they were freaking awesome. And especially around the topic of empathy, every time I go in to talk to a group of young people about empathy, they kind of look at me like I am a moron, because they understand empathy way more than any of the adults that I interact with. And it’s those moments of realizing like as adults sometimes I think we think that we know what we’re doing and we’re right, and this is the way it should be. And we’ve got to fix the younger generation. There’s something wrong with them. And it’s like no, just how are we going to be powerfully self-reflective, which is what I hear you talking about grow in ourselves and interact and share with everyone in particularly youth that we’re talking about today.
Mike Desparrois:
Yeah, I think that’s right. And I think that’s exactly what my experience is with kids. I have a background in special education. That’s where I got my start. And when I moved to Texas after my first year of teaching at a homeless shelter in Colorado, I was working in what they called an emotionally disturbed unit. Now that in no way, shape, or form sounds like a place any freshman in high school wants to be in that room. So already there’s like this negative label towards these boys that I was teaching. And I was young not much older really than them in a years. I didn’t have hardly any tool of [inaudible 00:19:02] behavior person yet to really know how to work with them. And my main tool was to number one consequence them when they did something wrong, and then argue with them because by gosh I was the adult and I was right. And it got me nowhere other than a lot of heated discussions and problems.
And I remember going back to Colorado after my first semester of teaching and it was Christmas time. And I went back to my parents’ house, and my parents lived right across the street from the high school I attended. And they were still in session. They hadn’t started their Christmas break yet. And one of my favorite all-time people that I had a strong sense of belonging with was my former baseball coach. And I just went across the street and went into his classroom, he was teaching typing at the time, and just went in to see him and talk with him. And it’s interesting, because I went with this idea like, “I’m going to go and tell him all my problems and how awful these kids are.” And he’s just going to tell me it’s okay. And that like he’s going to give you some great advice and all will be good.
And I remember just sitting there telling him I was like, “You wouldn’t believe the language that they use. You wouldn’t believe this. You wouldn’t believe that.” And he stopped me through all this complaining, and he looked at me and he said, “Mike, let me ask you a question, why are you a teacher?” And I said, “Well, I had great people like you, and I’ve always wanted to inspire youth. And I wanted to do all these things.” And he said, “Then why are you fighting these poor kids? They have had the roughest background of anybody, and you’re giving them what they already have in their home situations. You’re creating more problems than you are good. So what if you just went in with the idea that you’re just going to establish a relationship with them. And you’re just going to find out that these are actually really cool kids.”
And so it was kind of like the fireside chat. Reality and what I was looking forward two totally different things. So maybe that moment in time I was kind of like hurt. And like, “You don’t know what you’re talking about.” But the more I thought about it and the more I had those [inaudible 00:21:33] to really kind of comprehend, I went back second semester with that in play, because what I was doing, wasn’t working. And I just tried to establish relationship with these kids. And what I find out, it’s just what Sarah said. These kids who grew up in really hard situations. I mean, stuff that you just couldn’t even imagine what they’ve gone through in life, the abuse, the trauma, everything. And I was finding out that we actually had a lot of interests that were similar, and that they were really cool kids. And the more that I got to know them and just focused on the relationship and not the consequences, it was amazing what started to happen inside the classroom.
Now, I still had a lot to learn when it came to behavior support, and I really had no skills at that point in time. It just that one idea of relationship, which was really just the sense of belonging that we’re talking about, led me to believe there’s a better way, and there’s a way we can just work with extreme behavior kids. But what if just everybody just kind of focused on that? And that’s kind of where my passion is. And you can imagine the first time I took CST class, and I started looking at this material thinking about, “Well, the person who sent me, thought I needed to be a better listener.” I was just like, “This applies in all walks of life.” I was just so excited and so eager. And that [Marsha Burns 00:23:04], who was one of our facilitators at the time, I’m sure she just wanted everything in her power to just shut me down, because I kept asking questions, and I started having thoughts and ideas, so.
Sarah Weisbarth:
I’m picturing you in the classroom Mike, I can totally picture it.
Mike Desparrois:
Yeah. I was big, bright, and shiny [Marine 00:23:26] and Marsha they were so gracious to have me in the class. We’ll leave it at that.
Sarah Weisbarth:
With the time that we have left for our podcast today. You mentioned all of these uh-huhs that were happening for you in the classroom when you first took the class. And I imagine you could see that application to youth in the environment you were working and then in now. Any particular skill or concept out of the CST class that you want to highlight as it relates to youth and how you’ve seen it work?
Mike Desparrois:
Yes, absolutely. I think that learning the skills that I liked the most and I liked them all is when we tie back to the logic and the emotion circles. It’s inside reflective listening, and I love this because there’s so much brain research out there that supports everything that’s happening inside those circles. And I remember sitting in class and we’re doing the true false questions that come prior to the logic and emotion circles. And it says like true or false. When others telling me about their problems, is it a helpful to ask questions, offer my advice, share my stories, tell others they’ll be okay. And I remember sitting in that class and I’m like, “True, true, true. I can give you a million stories about all my life experiences, and why people need to listen to me.”
And so I’m like doing this battle, and like Marsha’s like, “False.” And I’m like, “Nope, true. And she’s like, “That’s false.” So I’m like, “Nope true.” And we get to those circles and it’s kind of like a lightning bolt hits me. And I’m like, “Oh, so what you’re telling me is when emotions are high…” And I know this as a behavior specialist working with kids that I really just need to let them have their space and time. And if I just lead with these listening skills, it’s going to be so much more supportive than if I just try to give them my advice, or tell them a story, or whatever it is I think is supposed to be really helpful. And I’m just like, “Wow, that makes total sense.”
And so literally I still have it in my old workbook. I went back and I crossed out my pen and I wrote like all the false answers, because that was that moment in time that I just loved to sit with this and say, “At the end of the day, when a kid is just about to blow, when they’re just really angry and they’re really upset, if I can sit back and just allow myself to be present with them, to make connection and just listen, then we’re going to see logic come back down.” And that’s a powerful tool. If we can practice that and work with kids with that, that’s really important. Because how often do you see like you’re going into a store, or maybe it’s in a school environment, or maybe it’s out in public at a sporting event where kids are angry and you see the adult get angry too. Right?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah.
Mike Desparrois:
And then the adult starts to push out consequences. So what happens to the kid? They just get angrier. And so the consequence doesn’t mean anything to the kid. And really what we need to do is just let the kid come back down, and we need to work with them in those co-regulation skills, and listening allows that to happen. Once the kid comes back down, we can then talk about, “Okay, what just happened? How do we fix this?” Any of the consequences if necessary at that point is where we go with that. But we kind of just get into these arguments and these fights with kids, and then we’re genuinely surprised when kids want to fight and argue back with us. And we’re a role model in that, like it’s kind of insane. And so those circles were my uh-huh moment to say yes. This is a skill you can teach, and this is a skill that isn’t hard to apply if we really consider what’s going on in that moment in time.
Sarah Weisbarth:
I love that phrase co-regulation, because it really brings it back around to what you were talking about earlier, when you say, “Well, what’s my role in this situation?” We all have a role, whether we’ve influenced our own kids, or other kids, or where we’re dealing with a situation in the moment that seems to be emotional. We have a role in that. We’re the ones present. So that phrase co-regulation is really sticking with me and I’m reflecting on it. Mike, thank you.
Adam Salgat:
Mike thanks so much about bringing up that concept of modeling the right behavior in front of our kids, and realizing our role and this co-responsibility to work with them. And knowing that sometimes we need to build to take that step back and let the kids come down. Because you’re absolutely right. I’ve seen it in my four-year-old. There are times that there’s no need to create an argument, just let her have her moment, and then we will talk about it when she’s a little more calm. Thank you so much for joining us today. As always at the end of our podcast, I like to ask our guests to give us a couple of key takeaways. So Mike, if you could give us your key takeaways from today’s conversation about utilizing these skills around youth.
Mike Desparrois:
Sure. I think one of the big ones that we learn in class is that behavior is an expression of need. And so if we really think about the moment when people are highly emotional, if we can remember that at some expression of need, and we give them the grace, and we give them the space by truly reflective listening, we’re going to help that person come down to the logic level, where they can make really, really good decisions. And that’s whether they’re a kid that’s four years old, or they’re a teenager, or they’re an adult, or they’re someone like my mom’s age, we just have to allow people that grace and space.
Adam Salgat:
Thank you both for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and talk to our listeners.
Mike Desparrois:
Thank you, Adam. I appreciate you having us.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. It’s always a pleasure. And Mike, I really enjoyed our conversation today.
Mike Desparrois:
I always enjoy our conversations that we have Sarah.
Adam Salgat:
Listeners, if you’d like to learn a little bit more and refresh yourself on the logic and emotion bubbles, we do have a podcast on that it is episode number 29. Feel free to go back and give that a download, give it a listen. And if you have any questions or any feedback on any of our podcasts, feel free to reach out on our Facebook page.
If you have any suggestions about subjects for our podcast, feel free to reach out through our Facebook page. And if you’re interested in taking a class, visit ourcommunitylistens.org. Thank you again for listening to our podcast and don’t forget each word, each action, each silent moment of listening sends a message. Therefore, you are the message.