We want people to change. Yet examining our motive first is imperative. Should I confront? Listen to perspectives, tips, stories, and experiences with confrontation. We can impact the outcome of the conversation if we choose.
Tune in as Adam J. Salgat and Leader of Curriculum Improvement & Development for Our Community Listens – Sarah Weisbarth discusses all the factors that go into confronting someone.
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Adam Salgat:
Hey listener, we would love it if you could take a quick moment to give our podcast a review on iTunes, Spotify, or leave us a message on our Facebook or LinkedIn pages.
Hello and welcome to the Our Community Listens podcast. My name is Adam Salgat and with me today is leader of curriculum improvement and development for Our Community Listens, Sarah Weisbarth. Sarah, how are you today?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Adam, I am doing well. And just in our pre-conversation I was reflecting on how much I enjoy talking about the content and just even you listing off what my job is with Our Community Listens, I love talking about why this content matters and how it impacts people’s lives. And I’m just really grateful for the opportunity to share with others.
Adam Salgat:
Well I’m grateful that you’re here on the podcast, one of our main outlets to reiterate the content for alumni, and also an opportunity for new listeners or new people to Our Community Listens who maybe haven’t been through the course as of yet a chance for them to learn a little bit about what the parts of the content are and hopefully get them interested in taking the class if they haven’t done so.
Today’s topic is confrontation and really we’re asking the question should I confront. Before we really get there though let’s take a step back and talk a little bit about the three moves. Go ahead Sarah.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Well, it’s really intriguing because I think about the amount of times that someone has come to me with a problem. And of course, my job is to listen, we already know that. Yet, what they’re trying to figure out is what do then they want to do about the problem or the situation, and that’s where the three moves come in, they have three choices. They can accept the situation, they can adjust the situation or they can choose to ask for change, which is what we all confrontation.
I think about that flowchart that we mentioned last month and that was highlighted in our webinar of well if I’m upset about somebody’s behavior how do I flow through this flowchart and what if I’ve landed on this option of well maybe I should confront. Well if that’s what I’m exploring, I feel like what we’re going to talk about today is like well now what? Like if I’m considering that as an option, what does that look like?
Adam Salgat:
I would imagine some people may land in that space and be like oh, let’s just take a step, back up this flowchart and do this again because sometimes people really want to avoid confrontation.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yes, absolutely. I actually have so many examples in my own life of well, I should probably confront but oh my gosh, this will be the fourth time I’ve asked for this change and nothing has changed, do I really want to go back at it again? Or man, the last time I asked for this change to happen there was a major blowup and I don’t know if I have the emotional capacity to handle that. Or maybe I just decide it’s not important enough to me and I shift back up that flowchart and move toward acceptance or changing the situation. There’s so many things, so many things, Adam, that go into, gosh, do I even want to go down this? Because I think as you’re alluding to, confrontation doesn’t always seem to “go well”, and I’m using air quotes in go well.
Adam Salgat:
Right, right. I think people there’s this general feel that you hear the word confrontation and there’s a lot of uneasiness. There isn’t necessarily the other side of the bridge where you’ve crossed the confrontation river and you’re now there together and you’re continuing along the journey and everybody’s happy and ready to go. It was maybe treacherous getting across but you did make your way. I think a lot of people just want to avoid it and I know we don’t want to sit in this space very long because really we want help people who have chosen that they need to confront. We want to help them talk about how to do get through that.
[crosstalk 00:04:29] so let’s get into that. Let’s accept the fact that we’re going to need to confront. As uncomfortable as it may make us or as uncomfortable as we feel it may make the other person, let’s move into what we can do to confront someone.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Well I think what we’re really asking people to do is then be willing to do the hard work. I use this phrase a lot when I coach with people and I facilitate content is if I actually want change to happen I got to do some work with myself first. Wading into that river of well I need to have a conversation with someone because maybe a relationship isn’t going well or maybe there’s a conflict in a work environment, maybe there was a behavior that compromises my values and my own needs that I’m choosing to confront. I have to do the hard work first of really examining what is my intent, what is my motive of heading into this conversation that we tent to term as confrontation.
Adam Salgat:
I heard you mention motive and that was one of the questions that we had talked about was what is the motivation of this confrontation and what is the need. What’s the benefit of taking the time to figure that out ahead of time before you step into the room, before you step into our analogy here of stepping into the river or the bridge and talking with someone about where you need to go?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. Well for me, I’ll just speak personally, and I hope, and I would anticipate people can make a personal correlation to my sharing, is when I stop, right, we got to pause first. Generally speaking, something has happened and we’re bugged, we’re upset, we’re bothered, and now we’re choosing to start a conversation and confront.
I have to pause and reflect on why am I feeling what I’m feeling, I’m having some sort of emotion, good, bad, or otherwise, I’m having some sort of feeling about someone’s behavior, and it’s having an impact on me. I have to consider those in relation then to my needs. So as I walk into that confrontation, let’s say my motive, at the base of every conversation that is an ask for change, we say confrontation we’re really asking for change, we’re starting a conversation, at the base of it I actually have a need. I need somebody’s behavior to change.
We generally look at confrontation like it’s Person A’s problem. I’m going to tell Person A what their problem is and they’re going to just have this epiphany and miraculously change. It doesn’t work that way. If I lead with the motive of you’re wrong and I’m right and I’m going to tell you why you’re wrong and I’m right I don’t anticipate that we’re going to get across that river.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah, and I can say this that if you’re not willing to go into the conversation and potentially find out that you need to make a change then you’re really running the risk of never getting any kind of change.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Absolutely. So that’s where when I think about motive and need, okay, I need for this person to change, how do I then want to approach it? Am I going into this conversation because I’ve got a point to prove because I want to be right, because my value’s been compromised and I want to point that out someone? Do I want to step into some sort of ego space and have it be about me or do I want to shift into a humble posture and try to understand where the other is coming from, even if we continue to disagree? That’s a whole other conversation about acceptance and agreement.
What is my intent in going into this conversation? I mean, I’m keeping going back to the right and the wrong because, I know for me and my tendencies, that’s generally when logic and emotion is out of balance and I’m emotional I can out data, I can out prove just about anyone and be “right”. Is that my motive or is the relationship my motive?
And there’s a diagram that one of our facilitators, Sharon Clement, she draws when she’s teaching class, and it has two people, nice little stick figures, and then there’s this box that she labels as the problem. So if we’re both focusing on the problem where does the problem sit? Does it sit between us or does it sit alongside of us together where then we can address the problem together? And for me, that has to be my motive. I need your help in addressing this problem and if I go in with that intention, that humility, that perspective of I need your help addressing this problem my motive is pure. If I go in with the intent of I’m going to prove you wrong because I know I’m right the problem’s never going to go away.
Adam Salgat:
So it sounds like keeping in mind what your intention and what you motive truly is in the end will help you through a lot of different things, and something I’m going to bring up. But it will help you get to a better space and hopefully a resolution.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Oh yes. And everyone’s motives are going to be different. So I’m right and wrong because of where I come from in my perspectives and tendencies, but some people have a motive to control, some people have a motive to possess the situation or create stability. Some people have a motive for self-recognition that they need this situation to be about them. I am listing all kinds of things that we could probably say are negative or ego-based motives.
But if we go back to the onion slide and remember, we’re all designed to try to get our own needs met. So that’s why you have to do the hard work first of that self-reflection of, all right, where am I? What’s going on with me? What need is being triggered? How do I really want to approach this situation so that the relationship stays intact and the problem is addressed?
Adam Salgat:
I want to talk a little bit about nonverbals because if you sit back, you take that moment, you hit the brakes and you assess what’s going on, why it’s going on, what are your motives, and you’re feeling good about it, then maybe you walk into the room or walk into the space to confront the person and your nonverbals are saying something else.
Your nonverbals maybe you’re giving off the idea of that you are right, that’s how you’re coming across. So even if your question and your motive has been defined in your head I think nonverbals play a pretty major part in this, so I’d like you to touch on that. I know that could be its own 30 minute subject, but I think it comes into play quite a bit with confrontation.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Certainly, and really what you’re talking about is alignment and we use that phrase every time we talk about nonverbals. We’re sending a message with our tone of voice, our facial expressions, our gestures, and our body posture, and I really hope our listeners can hear even the difference in my tone of voice when I talk about being right or wrong, or coming from that humble posture. Just that tone of voice shift, I’m aligning with that humble posture when my voice pace slows down, when it becomes softer, maybe I use gentler words.
My nonverbals then are aligning with my intent and are aligning with our message. If I try to fake that then I come across disingenuous and people are smart, people can read nonverbals. So much of our message is nonverbal. So then my ability to develop trust and rapport in that relationship is blown if my nonverbals are not aligned with my message and my intent, and my motive. Again, it’s always my sarcastic message of hope, like it’s hard work because if I’m going to come from a humble posture and be truly aligned with my nonverbals I’m taking a risk.
Let’s say you and I are having a problem, if I’m coming to you with that part and that intent I’m taking a risk, a very vulnerable risk, in saying, “Adam, we have a problem and I need your help.” Most people don’t even ask for help to frickin change their tire, let alone, we have a problem in our relationship, or our leadership, or our organization, or what have you, and I need your help. That’s hard.
Adam Salgat:
It is hard. And I think if you’re coming to them with an open mind and you’re coming to them with open nonverbals hopefully they will respond back with some good openness as well.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Well and we had touched on this in our earlier conversation about what if I come in loaded up like I am going to tell you, you’re wrong and give you the 15 pieces of data about why I’m right, and my nonverbals are completely aligned with that message, how successful is our conversation going to be?
Adam Salgat:
Well it’s very combative. Most people when they are put in that type of situation, we touched on this in our pre-talk about the four coping responses, so fight, flight, freeze, or fold. And if you want to touch on that a little bit deeper I think it would be important because when you come in very combative that’s what you’re typically going to find from people, one of these four coping responses.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Absolutely. I’m going to get what I gave. Completely. So I keep on going back to this word motive. If my intent is to solve this problem because, again, I need for this problem to go away, how I approach is really crucial because if I come in with ill intent trying to serve an ego-based need and I come in combative, the problem’s not going to be solved because I’m going to push someone into coping. So the fight and the flight, those are standard, everyone’s aware of that. People are either going to book it out of the room or they’re going to come back at us in a combative posture and means. The freeze is just that shocked look that I think people sometimes have when they’ve been confronted in a negative way where they just don’t even know what to do. And the folding is just almost giving in.
And I think sometimes we feel like maybe we’ve won or we’ve gotten what we need when we can get somebody to fold. But even the way I say that, I get someone to fold, that feels awesome. I would rather have someone come along with me and help me solve the problem together, because again, it’s about the relationship. And I can go into things like people thriving, I don’t want someone to have to cope. Cope, deal with me and my behavior? No, I want to thrive and grow together.
Adam Salgat:
Right. I think oftentimes we use those kinds of words like thrive and grow in a business setting, but it definitely applies to personal settings, marriages, relationships, friendships, even acquaintances that you need to talk things through to thrive and grow together, and no space is just as important as we think about thriving and growing as a business, and continuing to have a stable income or continue to have a stable business.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Certainly. Everything we talk about can be applied in any type of relationship. And very often, people come out of our class thinking first about their personal relationship with their family members, with their partners, maybe with their children, or their parents, or their siblings. And they all of a sudden realize at the heart of who they are that there’s that close personal relationship that they really haven’t been maybe having the best motive with. But these are also applicable in business settings, non-profit, organizational leadership. This is the business of doing life in community and with people.
Adam Salgat:
Absolutely. There is another element that I wanted to talk about when it comes down to the message that you may walk into the room with. And as you’ve informed me, in the next couple months we’re going to get into the FBI statement, the Feeling Behavior Impact statement in great detail. But one element that I think stuck with me after I finished class was if you’re forming a statement along those lines because you’re looking for some type of change, thinking about the impact and the person that you’re approaching, and how you could try to find something, that’s going to resonate with them because they will hear it differently than if it’s just something that maybe resonates with you. And therefore, they don’t have deep of a connection to it. Could you touch on that a little bit?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Absolutely. And I’m really glad you mentioned the series that we’re currently in around confrontation. We’re going to come up in the next months with October, November and December, and we’re going to pick apart the feeling, the behavior, and the impact of a complete confrontation message. Then after the new year we’re actually going to create workshop opportunities for people to craft confrontation messages and practice them with others that have gone through the series. People can backtrack and listen to our webinar recordings if they missed some of our past sessions and then jump in and continue with the series. Because it’s a total package, Adam.
So if we look at the three components of that message, feeling, behavior, and impact, some people are going to really resonate with feelings more. That genders that empathy. Some people want to know well what’s the thing that I did, like will you just tell me the problem, and that the behavior, like just tell me what you want me to do differently, I just need to know that. Generally speaking, that’s how you would lead with maybe my tendencies if we go back to our DISC sessions. I see tendency wants the information, the data.
You’re also now talking about impact, like why does it matter? So that’s where pausing and reflecting on the individual you want to have this conversation with can really matter because you can pause and reflect, and then well I know why this situation matters to me, how would it matter to them? How can I get in their shoes? How can I maybe see it from their perspective? How can I frame my message in such a way that they’re going to realize that their behavior is having an impact and possibly impacting their own needs and values because of how I framed that message.
The thing that I really like that’s behind the scenes and is going to tie back to that point of it’s work, you got to do the work, is if I can pause and do that reflecting and thinking about the individual, I have to then consider their needs and their values when I go in to confront. And I don’t know if I can back this up with fact, but I have to imagine that if I’m going to choose to do that I’m still always choosing the relationship.
Adam Salgat:
So Sarah, you’ve decided to confront. We asked the question earlier should I confront, and the decision has been made. Let’s go through the bullets again as a small recap and talk about what happens once we do make that confrontation.
Sarah Weisbarth:
So first and foremost, check your motive, check your motive. Craft that confrontation message, being very intentional, taking into consideration the individual you’re starting this conversation with. Consider then the integrity of your message aligned with your nonverbals. And create the opportunity, create the opportunity. You’re starting a conversation, so think about okay, am I going to do this after dinner? Am I going to do this before a big board meeting? Am I going to ask this person to coffee? Are we going to go for a walk? Am I going to get on the other side of my desk when I ask them to come into my office? Am I doing this over the phone call? Am I doing this over a virtual meeting where I can see their face?
So consider the environment that you’re going to create and craft for this conversation. So checking the motive, crafting the message, aligning the nonverbals, creating the environment, and then you’re going to start the conversation. The really counterintuitive next step is then shifting into a listening mode, a listening posture, utilizing all of the five reflective listening skills. And I have to tell you it’s really hard. [crosstalk 00:23:40].
Adam Salgat:
I was going to say, you said counterintuitive. I think many times we expect to say something and then that’s it, we’re done, we’ve made our point and accept it for you, move on. It’s not an area of brainstorming, it’s not an area of listening. And that can happen even to the best of us who are looking to make good steps forward.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Oh my goodness Adam, I could tell you story upon story. I have about 10 from this weekend of where I confronted and I wanted to be heard. I want to be heard. I’m going to say it again, if I’m going into a confrontation situation I have a need and I want to be heard. The other half of brain is going so that then means you have to listen. I’m like, “I don’t want to because I want to be heard.” It’s so difficult. We just have to remember we’re starting a conversation, we’re going to learn something new. That other person is going to have a perspective. There could be an ah-hah moment.
Maybe, as you mentioned earlier, there’s something that we’ve done that we’re not even aware of that’s triggered the other person’s behavior that we’re now having the conversation about. There’s so much to this. It’s not just oh I’m going to deliver this FBI statement and people are going to be miraculously changed, sometimes it happens.
I mentioned Sharon Clement earlier, she and I have a beautiful confrontation story where I approached her and gave her some feedback and she said, “Well I did this because you did this,” and I went, “Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry, and I won’t do that again.” Less than 30 seconds. It probably takes me more time to tell you the story than it actually took for it to happen. But that isn’t always the case, so we have to shift into that space well now I’m going to listen because I want to know what’s happening, and I also want to demonstrate the behavior that I’m hoping the other person is going to have for me and they’re going to listen to me.
Adam Salgat:
That’s one of the biggest things that I was just thinking about is putting yourself in a space and being the example that you hope they can reflect back to you. So if you’re listening to them and you’re trying to assess what they’re telling you, reflectively responding, hopefully they are seeing that and then doing the same.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yep. Absolutely. And I think … I know in a moment you’re going to ask me a question about my key takeaways, and-
Adam Salgat:
That is true.
Sarah Weisbarth:
… the more … This might not be my key takeaway. I think we just did a great summary. But I’m sitting here with my head in my hand really reflecting and I find that the more that I live in the skills, like we can teach people, we can teach feeling, behavior, impact. I can teach you five reflective listening skills. I can teach you nonverbal. I can teach you about creating an environment. But if you really want to grow in doing the skill there’s those ongoing moments of the hard work and the reflection on the personal growth side, and examining well what is my need, what is my motive, what am I going for here, what’s going on with this other person.
And I am finding, personally, still, and I hope always, that the more that I use these skills, the more you create this opportunity for us to share with our listeners, the more I’m learning about me and the work I need to do in order to then live the skills, have them be part of who I am because I lead how I am. And at my heart of hearts I want to be a good leader in my family, in my organization, in my community, and that requires work on my part, on who do I want to be because I lead how I am.
Adam Salgat:
Sarah, thank you so much for taking time to talk to us about confrontation and what happens when you decide you should confront.
As always, we like to give our listeners a couple key takeaways. I’m going to jump in with one quick, simple key takeaway that I always tend to remind myself and try to remind my wife, “who does not like confrontation”, is confrontation does not have to be bad. That’s one of the quick things to remember, it does not have to be bad. It’s a conversation and together you can figure it out. What about you Sarah?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Well I’ll piggyback right off of that Adam. Confrontation is just a conversation starter. And I think we can take that pressure out of it, that feeling of bad, when we think I just need to have a conversation with someone. And nothing will change unless we start to ask for change. Those would be my two key takeaways. Other than not even a shameless plug, an outright plug, to join our webinar series. If you have not subscribed to our newsletter yet, go to our website at ourcommunitylistens.org and join our newsletter. You’re going to see links there to not only this webinar series that’s happening but other sessions that are available we have short, informational videos, we have longer informational videos on our YouTube channel.
We have so many resources and opportunities to either self-teach, self-work in the skills and engage with other people that are doing the hard work and growing together. So I cannot encourage people enough, go to the website, subscribe to the newsletter, click the link, join a session, come continue the conversation with us.
Adam Salgat:
It is pretty darn exciting to see just how much wonderful content is being produced by the team at Our Community Listens because I’m a content guy, so all the different ways that you have the opportunity to soak up this information, whether it be through a YouTube video, through this podcast, through the newsletter, through the blogs, any which way … And the webinars now is a new added on feature. We obviously are in a state of more online activity and Zoom calls, and Google Meets, and everything else, so this is another great opportunity to soak up some information. So Sarah, thank you for mentioning. And everyone, ourcommunitylistens.org.
If you have any suggestions about subjects for our podcast feel free to reach out through our Facebook page. And if you’re interested in taking a class visit ourcommunitylistens.org.
Thank you again for listening to our podcast. And don’t forget, each word, each action, each silent moment of listening sends a message, therefore, you are the message.