In this podcast, Adam J. Salgat sits down with Katie and Jonathan Trotter, facilitators in Michigan who have started a communication skills training focused around helping marriages.
We will learn about how the two of them met, what they admire about each other and how they have personally used the Our Community Listens skills in their marriage.
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Adam:
Hello and welcome to the Our Community Listens podcast. My name is Adam Salgat. And with me today is Katie and Jonathan Trotter. Both of which are facilitators in the Michigan area for over three years. In our last podcast, we talked to them about the Our Community Listens communications training with a marriage focus. And today, we’re going to get to know them on a personal level a little bit better, because if they’re running a marriage class, let’s learn a little bit about their marriage, right? I think it makes sense. So, Katie, tell me a little bit about how you and Jonathan met, because it’s a good story.
Katie:
I had recently moved to Midland, and my sister lived two houses down from Jonathan. So, she had met him a few times in the neighborhood. And, at one point she had made the suggestion that I consider asking him out on a date. She found out that he was going to be leaving for Germany the next week. So, her pitch was, “The great news is, he leaves in a week. So, you could totally botch up this date and you will never have to see him again.” So, with that, no risk involved, I did call, and ask him up. And, to this day, he is the first and only person I have ever asked out on a date. And then, he left for Germany for six [inaudible 00:01:30].
Adam:
Well, you guys must have stayed in communication when he got back or maybe while he was gone. So the first date, you did not botch it up, apparently.
Katie:
At least not too badly.
Adam:
Listeners out there, I want to let you know that we often send questions ahead of time to our guests and in the questions that I sent to both Katie and Jonathan, they replied separately. And, the following question, what do you admire about your spouse? Was easily for both of them, the question that had the most content. So, it was pretty amazing actually, to sit down and read what the two of them had to say about each other. And, you could tell that they knew they had other questions to answer, or else they might’ve just kept going, I’m not sure. So, Jonathan tell me a little bit about what you admire about Katie.
Jonathan:
Without being too cheesy, everything. But, from the literal sense, if I were to go through a very brief list that encapsulates everything. One, I’ve never met someone as kind as Kate. And I think I mentioned in my answer, I’ve never heard her raise her voice to the children. I’ve never heard her talk ill about anyone since I’ve ever met her. Even those who may have wronged her, have I ever heard her speak ill about them. She tends to be the eternal optimist, and consistently has the ability to give people the benefit of the doubt. She is also extremely loyal, which I love. And, one of the things that I love about Kate is, she has created the space and ability for me to be vulnerable, which I never really had with anyone before. And, gives me the ability and the confidence, knowing that even when I fail, she will not view me differently, or nor will that change how she feels about me, which is pretty awesome.
She’s also one of the funniest people I’ve ever met in my life, she has a very quick wit. So, superficially that’s one of my favorite things about her, is her ability to make me laugh. And, I think I also put in there something about her being very strong, both physically, mentally, emotionally, she’s consistently willing to step out of her comfort zone and do things that challenge her. I tend to be a little more adventurous with outdoor camping, and I would go skydiving, things of that type. And, those are outside Kate’s comfort zone, but she has this ability to somehow see the benefit of those, is willing to take those on.
Adam:
But, it is great to hear all of these qualities that you truly reflect on, and know that she possesses. Katie, tell me a little bit about the qualities you see in Jonathan.
Katie:
Yeah. I’m going to echo Adam, vigor sentiment that was the longest response in paragraphs that I had. So, I’ll try to make some semblance of order of all of this. I will say that one of the things that I have truly valued, endless amount of experiences and opportunities for adventure. As he mentioned, he has created this environment where we can do rustic camping, lived out of our trucks for six weeks, and viewed these spectacular views of mountains and water. And I remember, getting to the top and thinking I would have won even dreamed this up. My whole world has opened up to all of these different experiences that I wouldn’t have even thought to attempt. I also love his ability to be a visionary and have this idea of always being able to see what things could be. I feel like that’s not a skill or a gift that I have. So, often when I hear him talking, I will find myself being excited, even though I can’t really understand what his exact vision is, just because every time he’s been able to make it happen, it’s just been such a cool, wonderful experience.
I also love Jonathan’s ability to do difficult work, when it comes to having to have really tough conversations, instead of just trying to avoid that he really steps into that space, in a way that has made it much less scary for me to learn how to engage in conversation about topics that I probably otherwise would have avoided. Also, he always believes in me, regardless of anything. I think he has more confidence in me than I have ever had in myself. And so, he consistently provides me with words of encouragement that really have led me to feel like, “I could do a lot of stuff.” And that’s been really exciting.
The other thing that I want to add, Adam cut me off if I’m rambling for too long, but Jonathan really also stepped into this really interesting role of being a step-parent. When we got married, I had a four year old daughter and I have never seen someone so committed to investing in a relationship like that. And it’s been really inspiring for me to see the way that he continues to grow in that space. And now, that we have had another daughter who is now the same age that Ellie was when we first met, it’s just been really exciting to see him as a father in that space too.
Adam:
It’s wonderful to hear. And as a fellow father, it’s one of the most beautiful things we get to do, I think, in our life is to be a parent. And, Jonathan it sounds like you took that on even with a little one that wasn’t biologically yours, but it didn’t matter, right?
Jonathan:
In the end, no it did not matter. In full transparency, I’ll admit that I was scared to death. And, had a lot of questions about how am I potentially going to fail this person? And, do I even have the capacity to do this. As far as doubting myself a lot as I walked into that space and whether I could actually even do it.
Adam:
Well, it sounds like you’re doing a pretty awesome job sir, so keep it up.
Katie:
I would agree. I would agree.
Adam:
I do want to say, the way that the two of you are comfortable talking about each other while you’re in the same room. I know it might sound crazy, but to me, I think a lot of couples struggle with, I think we struggle with the ability to really reflect on and tell other people how much we love them and we care about them. Even though, honestly, those are the words that we should say the most. And, I want to commend you both on that. And, I also want to bring up a little bit of how that has helped in your marriage, the ability to get to that place where you’re comfortable having that type of conversation. So, tell me a little bit about how you’ve grown together, and what that has looked like. And then, if you want to touch on the Our Community Listen skills and how those have helped, feel free to do so. Katie I’ll let you start.
Jonathan:
I will say that I think a lot of times in new relationships, there’s so much of that unknown, or testing how your comments or responses are going to be received. And I feel like a lot of our ability to be open and talk about stuff has come from a lot of the OCL skills related to being able to listen to the other person without judgment. And, to listen to understand, instead of just looking for ways to respond, because every time we would express something and be met with that, I think it just went further and further to build and develop the trust that we have with one another. So, instead of us having to try to really figure out, “Should I say this? Should I not? How are they going to respond?” We’ve been able to just jump more quickly to saying what we are really thinking and feeling. And, after you’ve been that open with a person and it’s been met with understanding and connection, I think it’s just cut down on a lot of wasted time that people have from dancing around the subject.
Adam:
What about you, Jonathan? How have you seen your relationship grow a bit with the Our Community Listen skills.
Jonathan:
Sure, I’ll answer that. Many, many ways, Adam, but if I were to narrow it down to probably the most impactful from two prongs, as a relationship, Kate has done this amazing job of allowing me to be vulnerable. And, she touched on this. The ability to express a feeling without being judged goes a very long way with building trust. And that’s been extremely important to me because I’ve never had that at all in my life before. And so, to have someone being willing to try and really understand how I’m feeling and not tell me that I shouldn’t feel that way, or judging me from some other standpoint has been extremely beneficial and allowed me to be comfortable being vulnerable and opening up more. From a personal lens, it’s almost the same thing. The ability to practice listening to what Kate has to say without responding, or needing to respond, or needing to solve the problem.
And probably the biggest thing is empathy. That’s been the biggest challenge for me, but the ability to listen to what Kate has to say and just really try and understand it from her perspective and not judge, it’s difficult to do. And, I’m not perfect at it by any means. I will admit that I’ve gotten a lot better, but I think that has been a game changer for me, and has allowed us to really build a really rich and deep relationship, because we are comfortable enough now knowing that I can express a feeling and I’m not going to be judged, or shot down, or whatever. To really well just try and understand where I’m coming from.
Adam:
It makes a lot of sense and it makes you at peace. And you guys have created a lot of trust between each other with the ability to do so. Tell me though, every couple has a disagreement every now and then. And Jonathan, your response to this, you wrote “FBI baby.” So, apparently you have really taken into the feeling behavior impact model. Tell me a little bit about how that has worked out for you to help you express your feelings with Kate.
Jonathan:
Sure. Really, the best thing that it has done for me is given me a way to express what I’m thinking or how I’m feeling. Where typically in the past, before this was modeled or explained to me, it would be a lot easier to just be frustrated or mad, and not really understand why, or be able to express that feeling, because I’d never probably felt comfortable being that vulnerable enough to say, “Hey, I feel this way about whatever’s happening right now.”
Adam:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jonathan:
And, here’s the impact that it’s having. So, having that model there, it’s so simple to just think about, “How am I feeling right now? Why? What’s bugging me? And what impact is it having?” And, just being able to put that into a sentence and express that, has been a game changer in those difficult times when we have disagreements. And then on top of that, when you add in the ability to express that, and not be judged for feeling that way, or expressing that feeling, really creates a lot of trust and a safe space to continue to allow us to do that, I think.
Adam:
Katie, what about you? In times of disagreement, any certain Our Community Listens skills that come to mind. I mean, it sounds like you’re not raising your voice. So, that’s a positive element, here.
Katie:
Yeah. I will say, Adam. I mean, if you look at disc behavioral tendencies, I definitely fall on the fact that I would be more tempted to avoid, or pretend there’s nothing going on. And for me, the FBI was also one of the key skills that I put down, because what it does is it gives me an Avenue to actually talk about things that bug me in a very safe way. Because, we both have this common language and understanding that we are two different people, we will get bugged at some point, and how beautiful that now we can just go to each other and say that. We don’t have to agree with the other person to still accept that, that’s their reality at that moment. That’s how they’re feeling. We don’t have to try to be defensive, or tell them that’s not the reality.
And, it provides a space for us to be able to just… I don’t know if you’re a relationship person it draws us closer. If you’re more task-oriented, it’s just more efficient, because we’re not wasting a lot of time being passive aggressive, or saying hurtful things and having to go back and repair later.
Adam:
Yep. And then, that can be a lot of wasted energy sometimes. Can’t it?
Katie:
Yeah, absolutely. The other thing I will say, Adam, the disc profiles have been really helpful for me as well. We talk about style flexing in class, but we also talk about the fact that sometimes it’s not necessarily that we have to adjust our behavior as much as just interpreting each other’s behavior differently, now that we have an understanding of where that’s coming from. And maybe even appreciation of what those different traits can bring into our relationship.
I know that for me, the fact that Jonathan has a primary dependency, I know that when he is being really decisive and fast paced. I think, before I had an understanding of where that came from, I could feel a little bit caught off guard and how do I keep up? But now I look at it as, what a beautiful way for us to actually have progress, and to get things done, and to have experiences that I would still be stuck in. Let’s think about this a little bit longer, and we don’t really need to make any choices, I need a little more information. And, it’s just brought such a beautiful dynamic to our relationship that, when you have a better understanding of it, I think it even allows you to appreciate those differences even more.
Adam:
So, there’s less hesitation about climbing that rock mountain. You just head straight up it now, is that what you’re trying to tell me?
Katie:
Yep. Yep.
Adam:
Speaking of that, you did touch on this a little bit, but tell me a little bit about what you guys enjoy doing as a family? I’ll let either of you jump in on that.
Jonathan:
Katie pointed at me. So, I guess that means that I have to answer this question, at least first, prior to her. Our entire family, we love being outdoors. And so, typically if even though, I guess that the weather isn’t pleasant, you will at some point probably throughout the day find us outside doing something, rain, sun, snow, whatever it’s like outside. We’ll be outside, whether its cross country skiing or out on the lake swimming, or just sitting outside on the deck, enjoying the beauty, going for a walk in the woods. We love being outdoors together as a family, and just hanging out. We play a lot of cards, a lot of cards.
Adam:
What kind of cards?
Jonathan:
We play a lot of setback, Euchre type games. Our eleven year-old has learned to play Euchre. So, he often wants to play cards. A lot of board games.
Adam:
With the four year old. Have you started Go Fish? Because, I just started go fish with the four year-old.
Katie:
Not yet, but we currently let her sit on our lap as we play the card game, so she can start passing out the cards for us.
Adam:
Good call. Yeah. Keep them involved.
Jonathan:
[inaudible 00:15:42]. We love to camp go on trips together, random road trips during the day just to experience something new. Love cooking, and just hanging out for the most part. Pretty low-key.
Katie:
Yeah. Love having people over, so it’s not uncommon that you would find a different family or group of friends over at our place as well. So, just that common thread.
Adam:
It sounds like the two of you, along with your kids, have really built a long lasting and loving relationship. Can you each give me one key takeaway about building a trusting and loving relationship to any couple who might be listening.
Katie:
I would say, when your partner chooses to share something with you, to try to have your very first reaction be, “How can I connect with my spouse through this?”
Adam:
Some good advice. Jonathan, you got a little beat there. What do you got?
Jonathan:
Don’t judge, stay out of judgment. So really, along the same lines of what Kate said. Don’t judge what they’re sharing with you. And just, “How can we make a connection here to understand where they’re coming from?”
Adam:
Some very solid advice, you two. Is there anything else you’d like to add about relationships, or your relationship in general?
Jonathan:
I have one comment I’d like to say, as much as we love to entertain. I would like to say on public record that you and Becky have not been over to [crosstalk 00:16:59] on the west side of the state yet. And, I’m a little saddened by that. Just so you know.
Adam:
We have not. And, do you have room for two and a pregnant wife? Do you have room for all of that?
Jonathan:
Indeed. Yes.
Katie:
Absolutely
Adam:
Yep. We are pregnant, we’re due September 2nd. So…
Katie:
Congratulations.
Jonathan:
Congrats.
Adam:
Thank You. So, if you’ve got a comfy bed, then that’s what I’m gonna need.
Katie:
Oh, no air mattress, at that point.
Adam:
No. Heck no, she would kill me. She’d be like what are we doing. We would love to get over there someday soon. It would be great. Katie and Jonathan, thank you both for being a part of the podcast today, and for giving us a look into your life. I really appreciate you sharing what’s worked for you guys and how you continue stay strong in a relationship.
Jonathan:
Thank you, Adam. It was our pleasure. Well, at least mine, I don’t know about Katie.
Katie:
Mine as well. Thanks for having us.
Jonathan:
Absolutely.
Adam:
If you have any suggestions about subjects for our podcast, feel free to reach out through our Facebook page. And, if you’re interested in taking a class, visit ourcommunitylessons.org. Thank you again for listening to our podcast, and don’t forget each word, each action, each silent moment of listening sends a message. Therefore, you are the message.