Adam Salgat sits down with Misty Janks and Sarah Weisbarth to discuss how to handle difficult conversations.
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Adam :
Hello and welcome to the Our Community Listens podcast. My name is Adam Salgat. And with me today is Our Community Listens, Michigan chapter leader, Misty Jenks, and Our Community Listens facilitator and alumni engagement lead, Sarah Weisbarth. Hello ladies. Welcome to today’s episode.
Sarah:
Hi Adam.
Misty:
Hi Adam.
Adam :
So Sarah brought a topic to us and I was thinking about it and it set me in this direction. What are two topics people say should never be brought up around the dinner table with friends and family? Typically, politics and religion are the top two. But why is that? I believe because many times people have a hard time understanding and accepting each other’s point of view. They’ll argue their points in an attempt to have the other person eventually agree with them. And if they don’t and this may be extreme, but sometimes friendships are ended and families are torn apart, but Our Community Listens to attempts to teach everyone ways to have a difficult conversation in a constructive way. And we’ll certainly get into some of those tactics in this podcast, but where do you think this starts, Sarah?
Sarah:
Well, we’ve been talking even as we were prepping for this podcast around the concept of acceptance and agreement and like, we’ll remember that there’s a significant difference between acceptance and agreement where we can accept someone for where they’re at, but don’t have to agree with the choices or their opinions or belief systems or behaviors maybe that they’re having. Is that what you were thinking at Adam?
Adam :
Yes. Absolutely. And when I was discussing it or when I was thinking about it, acceptance and agreement are two different things.
Sarah:
So what do you think are those difference between acceptance and agreement?
Adam :
I think oftentimes when you’re just waiting for someone to agree with you and you’re constantly waiting for that to change, when it doesn’t happen, you end up disgruntled, angry, upset, and if you could find a way to move into acceptance and just accepting that they’re going to have different views and we can get into why later, but if you can move into that acceptance, you’ll let go of that disgruntled nature. You’ll let go of all your upsetness and you can move into a happier state.
Sarah:
So it sounds like you’re saying, if I’m holding on to this need for them to agree with me or for me to be right, or for me to even shift and agree with them when maybe I don’t even want to, that’s that wedge that starts to be driven in that relationship.
Adam :
Yes.
Sarah:
That creates that tension and that disconnect.
Adam :
Yes. You start disconnecting with them because I’ve been through certain times where I wasn’t able to let go of someone’s belief or someone’s thought on a subject, and then I could tell how every other portion of our relationship, every other part of it, I had started to pull away.
Sarah:
Yeah. It’s almost hard to accept them for who they are because you’re so keyed up on this need to agree.
Adam :
Right.
Sarah:
Interesting.
Adam :
So I think in the end, when we’re talking about our relationships, we either have to accept, or we do come to some type of agreement. Sometimes that agreement is necessary when we’re talking about husband and wife and maybe a financial situation has as Sarah brought up in our prediscussion, but other times it needs to end up in that acceptance. Talk a little bit about the issues today that are causing people to disagree so much.
Sarah:
Oh, that’s what motivated my ask for this topic. And that’s why I actually asked Misty to join us today because she has some really good perspectives on current topics and issues and worldviews. I just feel like there’s a lot of hot-button topics and I’m just going to say them out loud and hope this doesn’t blow up in our face. But I mean, we could talk about politics, the current political climate, we could talk about abortion, which is part of our current political climate. We can talk about this drive towards inclusion and the desire to work towards that acceptance of everyone. It could be like you said, issues and marriages, just all kinds of things that are out there that are hard to talk about. And again, we have the tools, like I feel like we have the gift like Misty and I are smiling at each other right now. I feel like we have the gift to give people to have those difficult conversations in a way that’s going to bring connectedness instead of driving that wedge. Misty, what are your thoughts?
Misty:
I agree. I think the skills that Our Community Listens equips you with allows you to see past that one difference and really see the person as a whole and be able to connect over the million things that we have in common instead of this one difference. This one belief system that we don’t agree upon.
Sarah:
Yeah. And I can see that just in general, like again, worldview, like political climates, but I can also see that in just one-on-one more intimate relationships between friends or family members.
Misty:
Yes. As we’re working with dedicated partners and we’re seeing some of the data come from youth, it’s been really interesting. The narrative around that is, “I am now able to just see that person and understand the differences, even though that hasn’t been my lived experience, I can appreciate theirs.”
Sarah:
Interesting. Is there a key piece of our content that comes to your mind when you hear those comments that maybe people are applying in context and application?
Misty:
It’s definitely been the empathy and reflective listening.
Sarah:
What about that do you think is making the difference for them?
Misty:
I think instead of going into the conversation of, I’m going to argue my point, so you see where I’m coming from. People are taking a more relaxed approach and stepping back and like, I’m going to listen to this person to try to really hear what is happening with them instead of arguing and making sure my voice is heard.
Sarah:
So, almost like from a perspective like curiosity. I want to know more about their point.
Misty:
Yes. And that allows them to have those deeper relationships.
Sarah:
And those are like the reflective listening skills. Those are pretty easy to apply. You can practice those, whether you believe they’re going to work or not, you can actually choose to put that in practice.
Misty:
Absolutely. I tell the stories all the time, my seven year old daughter, Zoe, she says, “Tell me more all the time.” It was funny just on the way over here. I asked her, we were talking, she’s telling me more about that. And I said, I said, “Zoe, why did you ask me that?” She goes, “Well, it helps me understand what you’re feeling.” And I think that truly points to it and if a seven year can pick up on it, I think it’s pretty amazing.
Sarah:
Absolutely. So it’s truly just something we can put in practice, whether we think it’s actually going to work or not. Like, I feel like I’ve had some of those moments where I’m like, I just almost like want to walk out of the relationship or walk out of the conversation. And I have to like gut check and double down and be like, “Nope, I know that I can actually practice these skills and I’m going to choose to do it right now.” And sometimes that’s the only thing I can hold on to is like, “I know better. So I’m going to do better. Even maybe accepting going back to Adam’s concept, that it’ll make a difference yet. But if I do double down and practice it, it does make the difference in the long run.
Misty:
Absolutely. It always surprises me even when I want to check out of those conversations, because I don’t think I want to hear the answer. I practice the skills and I learned something new. Yeah.
Sarah:
And there’s like, I appreciate your honesty. And our honesty in this conversation, because there is a real truth, guys, this is hard. Adam’s nodding. What do you want to share?
Adam :
Well, you guys mentioned something there about getting to know somebody, what they’ve been through? What is their truth? And that made me think of the onion slide, which is a really great explanation of why we are so different? What causes us to create such a different views? And if we take the opportunity to listen to someone, we can start to see why we’re so different. If could either one of you give us a quick overview of that onion slide?
Sarah:
Yeah. I’ll be happy to do that. It’s one of my favorite slides. If you guys remember the onion slide is where we talk at the beginning of the communication profile or our disc profile. This understanding of what drives our behaviors. And we use this expression, the statement that every behavior is an expression of a need. And so the onion slide starts at the deepest level where we have certain needs and values. And those are really core to individuals. Those are special, unique. They’re created from our past experiences, maybe how we were raised. Just again, it’s just our needs and our values of what is important to us.
When we have a need or a value, then we’re going to have a certain attitude or belief system or opinion around that. And that starts to then shape how we choose to behave. We know that we have choice. We’ll probably talk about that later, but we always have a layer of choice between how we would typically behave and then how we actually behave. So what people see, and maybe the things that get us upset about others is just the behavior. Well, underneath that behavior is a need, or a value.
Adam :
It reminds me a little bit of a story that I read in the Detroit free press. Some of the Detroit lions football players went to an Inner-City School. One of the more poverty ridden and gang ridden areas of Detroit and the players shared his story about how he grew up in this same type of area in Washington, DC. And the writer, I heard him speak about it on a podcast. And he was saying, “I’m watching 14 year old kids nod their head to this 22 year old up there telling them that his best friend was shot and everything they’ve been through.” And it really started to connect for that writer. And then in turn for me, because I was putting myself in those shoes. And when you start to think about this is their reality, I loved when Misty said that because their reality is different than what I grew up in. I did not grow up in those spaces. So their view of the world is completely different from mine.
Misty:
Yes. And that’s exactly where we can connect through that empathy piece, trying to see it as they’ve seen it and feel it as they felt it in that moment.
Adam :
Yes.
Sarah:
And even if we haven’t had that exact experience, you have not grown up in poverty, but you can still relate to that because of how others are relating to that and making that connection.
Adam :
Yeah. And I certainly didn’t [inaudible 00:10:35] didn’t have gangs. We didn’t have that around. So that reality is completely different than anything I’m used to. But you got to remember, this is what they’re living in. They may want to get out of it. And that’s the great thing about what those NFL players are trying to do is to show them there are ways to get out of it, so. If football might not be that exact way, but just setting the example of being a leader and you can change.
Sarah:
And you can make a difference in someone else’s life just by sharing your own personal experience and your own needs and your own values. Okay.
Adam :
So, when we’re talking about the differences that maybe those young kids are going through and what I went through, we both though in the conversation we would have needs. We’re both looking at maybe different needs. So Sarah, in your conversations, and when you put yourself in that situation, when you’re having those difficult conversations, what needs are you feeling? What are you looking at?
Sarah:
So I would just be… I don’t know, transparent on my own personal growth and my family will laugh because they call me out on this one. I know that when I am in a difficult conversation where I’m getting emotional, that my need is to be right. I have this driving need to be right and can actually feel it physically inside of myself. There’s a tension in my chest and I’ll feel my fist clench. And I get this really intense look on my face. And it’s because of course I know I’m right. Please accept that as sarcasm.
And I’m being joking and facetious, but in the moment guys, I am so wound up tight that I just keep on driving my point and I will flood people with data and logic and specific information to prove that somehow I am right. And I have to elderly missed that there’s something going on for that person, that they have a need and a value that they’re trying to share with me. I’ve just skipped past reflective listening and I’m ignoring anything that resembles empathy. And I’m so keyed in on my need to be right. And that is something that I continue to work on. That, that is my awareness of my need to grow in that desperate need.
Misty:
I just appreciate your honesty in that and the self-reflection and the growth that’s available, because you’re able to do that. I think what you just shared is exactly what happens when these hot topic conversations come up. So what I would like to dive into is, well, when you feel yourself doing that, what are some things that we could do and make ourself aware that we’re stepping into that space that we don’t want to be?
Sarah:
I think the biggest thing for me, I guess I can speak about my experience and then maybe we can give some tips and some tricks to others which I’ll trust you will help me with. I think the first has been, the awareness was key for me. And I often talk about how this content and using these skills saved my marriage. If you’re following our podcast, you hear about my husband and our relationship a lot. And knowing that if I continued to hold so tight to my need, that it was going to continue to damage this relationship. So I almost shifted my value a little bit, that the relationship was more important than me being right and starting to choose to do it differently. And so I did again, some self-reflection about like, “Okay, so why do you need to be right Sarah?
How important is it?” And really maybe created some questions for myself in my head when I noticed. And as I mentioned, it’s that tightness in my chest, the look on my face, my fist clenched. And then of course the reaction from in this instance, my husband or anyone else that I, of course I’m being right with, where they’re almost triggered to argue harder their point of view because I’m arguing mine so hard. So for me, I guess, to get to the point of your question, it had to be an awareness first. So I have a physical reaction and that I noticed the reaction from the other.
Misty:
I believe that self-awareness, and just soon as you, if you can be mindful of what’s happening in those moments and pick up on those small cues is when you can catch yourself and make that adjustment needed. So we’re not driving that disconnection between us and we’re actually getting to the space where we can connect.
Sarah:
So I feel like this is actually applying our concept of logic and emotion, but a starting to apply it to ourselves.
Misty:
Absolutely. So it’s starting to notice when the emotion is taking over us and we’re getting out of that illogical space and we’re not continuing to push and what can we do then to bring ourselves back down to vent all of that emotion that is building up inside of us?
Sarah:
Will you for our listeners, remind us about the logic and emotion bubbles and how we teach that? Just the concept behind it?
Misty:
Yes. Absolutely. So whenever we are triggered with something that causes an emotional response in us, and it doesn’t have to be a large emotional response, but our emotions start to rise. And this is actually brain science where our logic decompresses and it’s pushing that out of our brain. So our emotions actually take over on us. So we need to do something to allow us to release those emotions and get back to that space where we can start processing things in a logical manner.
Sarah:
So if I hear you correctly, when we’re emotional, our ability to actually think clearly is gone.
Misty:
Yes. Absolutely.
Sarah:
So at no point is it rational, or logical for me to keep on trying to be right?
Misty:
Yes. Or for somebody to tell you, “Calm down, come down. Let’s think about this logically and try to solve and go into the solution space.”
Sarah:
That’s just going to make me more emotional.
Misty:
Yes.
Sarah:
Because I have no capacity to even hear that logic from someone.
Misty:
Yes. Think of the last time somebody told you, “Just come down, let’s talk through this.” Does that help?
Sarah:
No. Oh, no. Like I’m chuckling in my head right now about how illogical that sounds to me even to imagine that moment.
Misty:
And then we do it to children all the time.
Sarah:
Tell me more about that.
Misty:
Well, you’ll see the kid out on the playground or if they hurt themselves and you’ll hear parents say, “Oh, calm down. It’s not that big a deal.” And if they don’t have time to process and release that emotion and be able to feel it, it’s hard for them to get into that space. So we need to allow them and connect with them in that moment of, “Oh, that really must have hurt.” And if they can say, yes and allow that to release, they’ll come back down so much quicker and then be able to get back into that space of normal, instead of being emotional.
Sarah:
So I feel like this is actually a skill then. I could start to use with my teenager.
Misty:
Absolutely. I’ve seen this used in preschools. This is another thing that I used with girls soccer. If they get hurt, take a couple deep breaths. I know that’s really hurt. And just allowing them that moment to feel that and then let it go.
Sarah:
So if I flip it back to, I’m the one that’s emotional, we just finished talking about when others are emotional, how we give them that space to let that emotion vent out. So then logic can rain again. But now I’m the one emotional, and let’s say there is no one around to help me get rid of that emotion. I don’t have a good friend like you to vent to, and you’re going to use all of your great skills to help me vent I’m on my own in a heated situation. Now, what do I do?
Misty:
I think there’s a lot of different skills that we can start to employ in those moments, mindfulness, meditation, anything that’s going to just let us step back out of that space and just decompress and let that out. So breathing exercises, you’ve always heard count to 10 and you’ll calm down. So anything like that, that we can employ that will help us in that moment to be able to take back control of our emotions.
Sarah:
I’m even thinking too about setting almost an awareness and some ground rules. When we know we have those relationships where we’re having those difficult conversations regularly, to be able to almost call a timeout. Because I don’t know if I could count to 10 in the moment and still be a rational individual. I’m thinking myself, I might have to go for a walk, take just a spin around the room, something physical to let that emotion out before I could have a constructive conversation, because that’s really the goal.
Misty:
Absolutely. I remember using this with my 12 year old daughter. She had mentioned something to me and it was one of those safety concerns. So I could just feel the emotion starting to build up in me. And in that moment she’s like, “Aren’t you going to say anything about that?” And I just said, “I’m sorry, but at this moment I can not talk about it because it will not be a healthy conversation.” And so we will talk about it tomorrow.”
Sarah:
I feel like this is also my 24-hour rule when I’m upset about an email maybe that I’ve received or someone has just [inaudible 00:19:53] me right off. And I can, again, it’s that awareness. I can feel that emotion building in me and no amount of logic is helping that I have that 24-hour rule that I have before I reply.
Misty:
Yes.
Adam :
You guys have talked a lot about self-awareness and I think that’s one of the biggest elements that comes out of going through the, Our Community Listens course. Truthfully, I think a lot of people walk away starting to realize a little bit about themselves that they had maybe never thought about or never realized. For the most part in this podcast, we’re talking to alumni. So they’ve been through that. Any suggestions or any thoughts on how to help someone get to a space of self-awareness if maybe they haven’t been through the course or just someone who you think might need that help.
Misty:
I would say learn from your errors. So, you know when you’re in the middle of that conversation like, “Oh, this is not going the way I wanted it to.” So if you can step back after that and journal and take some type of notes of, “What set me off in that moment? What was not allowing me to have the conversation that I wanted?” And so every time you’re in that space and you’ve done it wrong, because that’s how I learned best from my errors to take that moment to pause and reflect.
Adam :
That’s good advice.
Sarah:
I think it’s like really twofold for me. I think there’s a logical side for me. And then there’s an emotional side for me actually. I think through again, what went wrong? And I think about the behaviors. What did I do? What was your reaction to that? Is that the reaction I really wanted? What could I do differently next time? So almost like a strategy around practicing the skills and exhibiting the behaviors that we know are going to be effective.
And then there’s that deep self reflective side of me again, that’s like, “Okay, so now what was going on for you? Why were you behaving that way?” Why might they have been behaving that way? So I start to maybe… Maybe it’s getting to that empathy or applying the needs and the values to the conversation of like, “Well, what’s important to them? How might they be reacting because of that? So I think I too do both. What is something that I can proactively change and take action in, and that I shift towards maybe a deeper understanding of myself and others.
Adam :
When we have that heated conversation and now maybe Sarah you’ve taken that walk and you’ve let the logic come back in. There’s three moves that often when we’re put back in this confrontation mode that we have, I know Misty, those three moves we did a podcast on them, but I want to bring them up again because I think those are the really strong avenues for someone to make a choice about how they’re going to handle the situation now.
Misty:
So if we remember the three moves from class, the first one is that we can accept the situation. The second one is that we could change the circumstance, and the third move is when we can affectively confront and ask for change for the behavior that’s affecting us.
Adam :
I think many times, especially when it comes to certain things, maybe in social media, I change it to circumstance. So maybe I stopped following a certain page or I stopped following a certain person who I feel like is often very negative. And in the realm of the internet and social media, that’s two clicks. But that might not be the case in everything we deal with in real life. Like face to face confrontation, someone in our life who we work with, we live with, we just know through acquaintances who maybe rubs you the wrong way. So I know at certain times that’s not always going to be the right answer. And Sarah, what do you think? Get into those three moves a little bit deeper and let us know what else we could do instead of the simple two clicks.
Sarah:
Wouldn’t it be nice if it was always just two clicks? But in real life, like when we are in relationship with people, we don’t want to two clicks them out of our lives. We want to be in relationship with people. We had an alumnus talk to us about the three moves. And she proposed that there in the white space between the three moves, there was this additional A. We have acceptance adjust and then ask for change. She suggested that there’s this moment of analysis and adjusting yourself. Where do I want to move in these three moves? So I think there’s just that time for pause. And if we go back to when we’re triggered, what a strategy is? Is maybe first practicing that pause, and an analyzing like, “What do I want to do about this situation?”
And if it is like, I want to come back. I’ve taken the walk around the house. I’ve calmed down, but I want to come back and keep on talking about this issue because the issue’s important enough and the relationship is important enough. I actually feel like you’re in that asking for change mode, but you’re doing it in a way that you’re asking to understand and be understood. And so you’re using the confrontation model to just have a deeper conversation. This is the behavior that I saw. Here’s how I felt about it. Here is the impact. And then it’s more going back to that curiosity. Can you help me understand what’s happening for us here in this conversation? Tell me more using those reflective listening skills. So it’s not just cut and dried confrontation. It’s using probably all of the skills to just keep going back in to create deeper understanding.
Adam :
So, if you’re really in it and you’re in the conversation and you’re trying to make the situation change and you’re asking for change and you’re working towards listening with empathy and asking for it in return, let’s say, it’s not working, then what?
Sarah:
Well, we still have three moves. So we can keep trying. We can keep trying, and we can keep trying. At some point you can also, again, analyze and decide, do I want to choose one of my other moves? So I could move towards adjusting the circumstances or changing the situation is how we often say it. And it might not be… It’s not easy as two clicks. So some examples of how you can adjust the circumstances. It could be, maybe you just don’t spend as much time with that person, or maybe you choose the environment with which you spend time with that person, or maybe you agree to not have conversations that are hot-button topics. I don’t know if you have any other thoughts or ideas about what adjusting a circumstances circumstance might be. It’s probably going to be unique for the individual.
Adam :
I would say, that you mentioned not touching those hot-button topics. That’s where we started this conversation. It’s not just about, “Hey, we disagree about what to eat for dinner tonight.” I mean, it’s deeper stuff. And so you really have to decide, “I want this person in my life, therefore I need to accept what they believe and accept what their truth is.” And those are hard things to do, but that’s what we’re here to do in this world, I think. We’re here to accept and include as many people as we can get them all at the table talking and start to understand one another as the same thing. We’re all humans.
Sarah:
And remembering that I can accept a person. I don’t have to agree with their viewpoint. If someone has a viewpoint that is so polarized to mine, I don’t have… I’m not asking our listeners. I’m not asking our alumni to change their beliefs or change their values. What we’re really doing is asking them to find a way to accept that others also have needs, and values, and belief systems and accept them for who they are and where they’re at, but not compromising your own. And I think that’s where people get a little bound up their like, “If I’m going to just accept you as a person, that somehow I have to agree with you, and then it’s back to that need to be right.” And that’s not really what we’re asking. We’re just asking people to value each other for who they are and where they’re at.
Misty:
I love what you just said, Sarah. It’s all about bringing people together in valuing each other as an individual. And if we do that, that’s how we achieve the vision for Our Community Listens of world caring. We build connection one person at a time, one community at a time, and bring us all together despite of differences and be inclusive.
Sarah:
It’s almost like focusing on what makes us human and connecting through our similarities and celebrating and valuing our differences as we include everyone.
Misty:
Exactly.
Adam :
Do you know ladies, you ended up in such a heartwarming notion, but I can’t help but think about the book, Everybody Poops. And it’s just the truth that we’re all the same. Everybody poops.
Misty:
I thought you going to say, everybody matters.
Adam :
No. Well, everybody does matter but just the basic simplistic, we’re all the same. The kids book has it down [path 00:29:24]. So this podcast isn’t necessarily directly tied to a learning structure to explain a certain tactic of our skills that we teach in Our Community Listens. But I do have a question for you guys. What are certain key takeaways that you would like to reiterate to everyone at the end here?
Misty:
I think the number one for me is to stay curious. If we stay curious, that’s going to build connection and let our differences just fall to the side and meet each other where we are at.
Sarah:
I agree. I completely agree. And I feel like what we’ve been talking about is really starting to tie the concepts that we teach into practical application. And I would like to just bust through a belief system where I think sometimes we think we have to believe it before we do it. And actually if we just start to do it and start to practice it, then we’ll move towards seeing the result and believe it and be bought in. So, so don’t wait until you think there’s going to be some miraculous aha in your life. And then you’re going to be like, “Oh, I want to use these skills.” Start to use the skills, and then you’ll have the miraculous aha.
Adam :
That’s good advice. I’d like to thank both of you for coming in and talking on today’s podcast. If you’d like to listen to more podcasts, you can find them at ourcommunitylistens.org. We also have many blog posts there. And if you’re interested in getting someone in a class, feel free to look at the upcoming class schedule for late Summer and Fall. Again, thanks so much for tuning in and don’t forget alumni. You are the message. Everybody matters.
Sarah:
I love it.
Misty:
Sarah, your not excited that [inaudible 00:31:30] over you?
Sarah:
That was [inaudible 00:31:35].
Adam :
No. It’s okay. No. We can talk.
Sarah:
[inaudible 00:31:35] is advising. I was like, [inaudible 00:31:37] like everybody matters.
Misty:
I know what you are doing. [inaudible 00:31:41]. Awesome.
Adam :
Everyboby does poop.