Host Adam J. Salgat talks with Our Community Listens Facilitator Sarah Weisbarth as she opens up about what prevents her from being empathetic at times. She discusses her triggers and how she overcomes them.
The two of them also discuss the benefits of being an empathetic person and how to start changing our mindset on how empathy is a part of your life.
AI-generated dictation of the podcast audio
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Adam Salgat:
Hello, and welcome to the Our Community Listens podcast. I’m Adam Salgat, and with me is Our Community Listens facilitator, Sarah Weisbarth.
Sarah, on our production schedule empathy is the subject. And when I sent you an email letting you know what we needed to talk about, you wrote back and I quote, “I am tired of talking about empathy.” So why are you on E for empathy?
Sarah Weisbarth:
That’s a good one, Adam. Why am I on E about empathy? Wow. I don’t know if I’m fully on E about empathy. I think it’s that I get tired of talking about having to be empathetic all the time. I consider myself a pretty empathetic person. We’ve talked about this in previous podcasts. I think I can be overly empathetic and that can be a problem for me. But man, we talk about empathy a lot in this organization.
Adam Salgat:
That’s true. So why do we do that?
Sarah Weisbarth:
We focused so much on empathy because it’s really core at everything that we do. If I am going to listen in such a way that indicates that I care, I have to do it empathetically. I have to do it with that perspective that I’m willing to see things as others see it, even if I don’t agree. And to be able to identify the feelings that they’re experiencing and communicate that back to them, that’s really… it’s the whole aspect of empathy, and I’m chuckling to myself right now as I’m leaving out the whole judgment piece which is actually the part that I struggle with when it comes to being empathetic.
Adam Salgat:
So what gets in the way for you being empathetic? It sounds like you mentioned it already a little bit about you jump to judgment, and so it takes probably significant energy sometimes to get out of that.
Sarah Weisbarth:
That’s actually the big thing. So just for quick review, the four key aspects of empathy is perspective taking, staying out of judgment, recognizing feelings in others, and communicating that feeling.
I am so good at perspective taking, and I can see it as other people see it. I can see it from their point of view. I don’t necessarily have to agree with it.
I do pretty good with staying out of the need for them to agree with me. I can accept that’s how they see things and accept them for who they are.
I’m really good at the feeling thing. Maybe that’s the part that I get a little weary on, and maybe I have to do some self-care around of making sure that I’m having that well to draw from of able to just be with people in their feelings and acknowledge that feeling.
And you could hear me avoiding the whole question you just asked me about what’s the area I struggle with, and it’s judgment, Adam. It’s judgment. I can just be so opinionated about things, even if I accept them. I accept people for who they are, but man, I can quick go to a judgment.
Adam Salgat:
That is tough. I mean, it’s not something that you easily turn off either, and it has to do with, I’m guessing, just the way that you have built yourself over the years.
Sarah Weisbarth:
I do think this is potentially an excuse. Listeners, just so you know, I’m real and human. This is my excuse for judgment is my DISC tendency is a C tendency, and it’s very easy for me to assess information and form an opinion about it. And that then sometimes gets expressed as being judge-y.
Adam Salgat:
Gotcha.
Sarah Weisbarth:
That’s my need to strike that balance.
For example, Adam, it was this morning. It was this morning in the school drop-off line that actually had me thinking about being tired of being empathetic. The school drop-off line makes me crazy.
Adam Salgat:
I bet there’s a few listeners out there who feel the same way.
Sarah Weisbarth:
So, it is the… and these are the judgments. Here are the full judgments that fly in my head is the person that stops right in front of the door to drop off their precious child when in my, of course, opinion, they should have been able to drive 10 car links forward, and their child can walk to the door. So then there’s 10 more cars that can get their kids out of the car.
Adam Salgat:
Efficiency.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Efficiency, right? It just makes total sense, right? I once saw a meme that said something about if your kids are not ready to grab their backpacks and jump out of the car like they’re storming the beaches of Normandy, then the school drop-off line is not meant for you.
Adam Salgat:
We’ve got places to go, things to do. Get out of the car. Let’s keep moving.
Sarah Weisbarth:
And I know… thank you guys who were laughing with me and hopefully not judging me for judging the people in the school drop-off line, but this is an indicative moment of what happens for me, that something kind of triggers, and I’m having some opinionated response, and my empathy goes right out the door. It actually re-triggered for me yesterday in the school pickup line when I couldn’t figure out why this person, again, had stopped right in front of the door until I saw her daughter coming out of the doors on crutches.
Adam Salgat:
Right. Making it as short distance as possible for someone who either was currently injured or maybe that’s part of her everyday.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Absolutely. And so it’s that moment where I’m like, “There’s more to the story. My judgment has gotten in the way of my ability to know what else is going on for that situation and that person.”
Adam Salgat:
Right. So it blinded you a little bit.
Sarah Weisbarth:
And that is if… going back to your original point. That is what gets in the way of my ability to be empathetic.
Adam Salgat:
I know that I occasionally have trouble with empathy because I often get right to the let’s-get-over-it stage because for me, a lot of things are, “Accept it. You can’t do anything about it. Let’s move past it. Boom. Get over it.” And so therefore, I’m already at that stage while someone is still processing. So I know that’s where I struggle.
For me, it’s definitely the… and it has to do with my past experiences that I just have to accept things, and so you just… everything becomes quickly accepted, and you move past. So when other people are struggling with that, I know my empathy goes out the window. I’m generally frustrated and/or just don’t understand it.
When I take a moment, and I sit back, and I may not have the exact same visual that you had of someone on crutches, but it’s not far off. I started to realize there’s always things going on that can get in the way, but that’s generally what happens in my mind.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Adam, thank you for sharing that with us. I appreciate you sharing a very real story, so then I feel like my story is also validated that we struggle with this. This is hard.
Adam Salgat:
Absolutely. And I think oftentimes we end up listening to people so much that it almost becomes too emotional to listen to anymore. We’ve talked about that in the past with certain professions, potentially. Those in social work or even teachers who have to really listen to kids and take into account everything that they’re going through and how you can emotionally get tied to that and which can really drain your empathy tank.
Sarah Weisbarth:
I think that really starts to differentiate, for me, the difference between empathy and sympathy. I’ve actually found empathy to be very freeing because I think I have the answers for everyone, being able to shift out of that opinion and that judgment and just shift into, again, seeing it as they see it and identifying that feeling really release’s me from needing to have the answer or needing to solve this problem for them. I actually just get the benefit of just listening to them and being there for them.
Adam Salgat:
That does make sense. And I can understand how in certain roles in your life that is probably very valuable. I think, like I mentioned, there are times where it does drain someone, but you got to know when to let go of an empathetic situation, potentially, and when to continue to step in and be that listening ear, right?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Well, you’re really talking too about… well then, how are we sustaining ourselves, right? If it is my profession or my role to always be empathetic and in theory in our perfect world, we should all always be empathetic to everyone, there are certain engagements that just takes more energy to stay in that empathetic mindset. And so then does that mean we have less, possibly our tank is on E, and so we have less in us to give in an empathetic manner to maybe those that we go home to when we kind of let it all hang loose. And then, maybe we’re not able to hear what they’re sharing with us in that empathetic way.
Adam Salgat:
I’m sure it can be a struggle for… if you work in any of these professions, we’d love to hear your stories or whatever comments you’d like to make that you’re comfortable with because I know there’s plenty of people out there who have to deal with that, and they’re 40 plus and are probably at times cutting a lot of their loved ones short. And maybe they’re realizing now that that’s because of what they have to extend at work.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Well, we even see that with organizations that we work with in these professions, that it’s hard for them to even support one another because they’re busy supporting their clientele or the people that they serve. And then this, again, recognition that then what are you going home with? And so it continues to point to, and I think we bring this up often, is where is that self-care coming in? Where are we continuing to resource ourselves, so we have that ability and the resource and the energy and that well to draw from of being the person we want to be in other people’s lives.
Adam Salgat:
So you kind of mentioned this when you talked about using empathy for you, that it allows you to actually listen and that you’ve found it as kind of a gift, but what are some other benefits that come to mind when using empathy?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Well, for me, the freeing thing is huge. And I mentioned that earlier. It just kind of releases me from having to be the answer and be right in that situation. It also has taught me a lot to be able to start to see things from another person’s perspectives perspective has just almost kind of blown my mind in situations where I’m like, “Wow, I never thought of it that way. I never realized that something was an issue. I was completely oblivious to something.” Truly just enlightening, I would say, is probably a good word to go with what empathy has helped me with in how I relate and connect with others.
And just to… I don’t know, continue to be very grounding for me. When we recognize that people are struggling with things and even if there are things that maybe I’ve already gotten over, maybe I’ve gotten to that point in my life where whatever they’re struggling with isn’t a struggle for me, or it’s a problem that I could quickly resolve, but they just can’t is the realization that people are hurting and that there are struggles out there and that we have the ability to be present for people. And I’m going to use my little quote, unquote fingers here, help them with what they’re struggling with, help them by being empathetic, not by solving the problem, but just by being there for them.
Adam Salgat:
So Sarah, you’ve kind of given us an idea of what is empathy, but just to clarify some things, what’s an example or two of what empathy is not? What isn’t it?
Sarah Weisbarth:
It’s a hard way to ask that question. I hear what you’re saying, especially as we talk about professions or individuals that tend to be so empathetic in their practice. I know we’ve talked about it in the past, when is enough enough, but what is empathy not, okay?
So empathy is not feeling for the person, okay? So if someone’s coming to me with a problem or a concern and they’re expressing what’s going on with them, I don’t have to be sad. I don’t have to be upset. I don’t have to be whatever feeling they’re experiencing. So that’s what it’s not.
But what it is is recognizing that feeling in them and acknowledging it. So kind of just width, and it creates, really, a healthy boundary.
Adam Salgat:
I can completely understand that, yes, because if you have someone in your life who consistently maybe has issues or is coming to you with their issues, it doesn’t mean you have to let them weigh on you as much. It doesn’t mean you have to let that empathy sink in. You can be there, understand what they’re going through, but be able to let go of it when it’s time for you to let go of it.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Absolutely. And you’re really building on them the next concept of what it’s not. It’s not taking on all of their problems. And it’s not being the collection site for everyone’s problems or concerns. It’s really empowering for others if we can be empathetic with them and recognize their feeling and express it, feel with them, and let the problem reside with the person that’s struggling with it, not take it on, not be that collection site. We’re empowering that person to sort through and solve their own problem and figure out what they want to do. And we’re functioning in just alongside kind of support role.
Adam Salgat:
Is there anything else that empathy is not?
Sarah Weisbarth:
So this next idea in my head is kind of hard to get your hands around a little bit. I feel like sometimes we teach empathy in such a way that it feels contrived or a little manipulative. I’m going to sit here and be empathetic with you and care about you. But then great, we’re done, problem over. Empathy is not just a tool to employ. It’s not, “I checked the box, and I was empathetic today, so I don’t have to be empathetic tomorrow.” Empathy is more just a presence and a way of trying to genuinely be.
Adam Salgat:
So a little bit more of a continued connection with people.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Excellent. You summarized that perfectly. That it’s just truly how I want to be around people, understand them, recognize them, connect.
Adam Salgat:
So if it’s not a tool, how are we teaching it then?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Empathy is one of those things that feels kind of squishy. It feels like it’s a soft skill. It really is a very practical and hard skill that we can just start to integrate into how we’re being. So if it’s something that I want to be able to teach people to do, for one, we’ve already done that. We do that in class. We hit on what are the aspects of empathy, but then we kind of have to start to practice it and be in those moments of recognizing what’s going on for this person.
So teaching it might just be starting to do some feeling guessing and start to listen to people and be like, “I wonder what they’re feeling. They might be feeling upset. They might be angry. They might be frustrated” and truly, almost in your head, start this guessing game about what could this person be feeling.
Adam Salgat:
So you can start to identify how to connect with them because you have probably felt X. You’ve probably felt upset or frustrated or mad.
Sarah Weisbarth:
It’s a feeling I can relate to. And we can pick up on all the stuff. What’s the tone of their voice. What are their non-verbals? What are the words that they’re using to be able to kind of do the feeling guessing in our head? I think that’s the easiest one to start with because it requires the least amount of personal growth and change on my part. I can pretty easily figure out there might be one of five feelings I could guess that someone’s expressing when they’re sharing something with me, and I can say, “Well, it seems like you’re upset.” That’s empathy. It can be that easy, “That’s really exciting for you. It could be a positive feeling.”
So that’s how I start in helping people practice empathy. Start with a feeling. Guess a feeling. It’s okay if you’re wrong. Just guess a feeling because the person’s going to be like, “No, I’m not. I’m not upset. I’m really actually annoyed.” And then they’ll keep talking about what they’re annoyed about.
Adam Salgat:
And then you kind of got it… you have a better grasp as to what they’re going through.
Sarah Weisbarth:
That’s empathy. It can be that simple from what are the other aspects of empathy and how to start to teach those. Perspective taking… that is a personal growth. I could do a whole session on how do we learn how to shift back and not have to be in agreement, but can accept and see things as other people see it. That just needs to start to be almost a curiosity thing. And I wish you guys could see me right now because I’m clasping my hands tight in front of me because it does require me to stop having to be right and see things my way and instead be curious about, “I wonder how this person sees things.”
Adam Salgat:
To hold back your judgment.
Sarah Weisbarth:
To hold back my judgment, Adam. Thank you. Because then that’s the next aspect of, “Wow, I just have to discipline myself to keep my opinion to myself” and instead, continue in that curiousness of, “Wonder what’s going on for this person?”
Adam Salgat:
Sarah, thank you so much for being open about why you were a little empty on empathy starting this podcast. I hope your school pickup line goes a little smoother next time. Everybody stays efficient and just flows right through. Can you give us your key takeaways for today’s podcast?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Adam, thank you. I appreciate you helping me be lighthearted about the school pickup line. And I guess I will try to use that for the key takeaways that really in any situation, we can be empathetic and recognize that there’s something else going on for other people.
For me, my key takeaways in listening to our conversation today would be how do I stay out of judgment? That’s a personal lesson for myself. What then could be going on for the other person? So how do I see their perspective, and that we don’t always have to be on. Empathy is not a tool, that it’s a way of kind of being, but we also have to feel resourced and supported by others being empathetic with us in order to continue to be empathetic with others.
And if there’s one thing that I would suggest just practicing is start to guess the feelings and start to kind of play a little guessing game with others and see what feeling might they be expressing to you and if you can identify that and share that with them.
Adam Salgat:
Well, thanks again, Sarah, for your expertise and your help in this empty situation.
Alumni, if you have any stories about feeling empty with empathy or just have more questions about how this works or how to adapt it into who you are as a person, feel free to reach out to us at our website, ourcommunitylistens.org, or find us on our social media pages on Facebook.
Thanks so much for listening and don’t forget alumni, you are the message.
