There are many holiday celebrations on the horizon. This is often joked about as a time of family turmoil. Let’s talk about what we can do when a relative starts expressing views different from your own.
Listen in as Jules Maloney, Wisconsin Regional Director & Director of Virtual Programming, shares many examples of how to move past judgment and into acceptance, even when you don’t agree with someone.
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Introduction
Welcome to the listen first podcast brought to you by the Chapman foundation for caring communities. Our vision and mission is to strengthen relationships and build stronger communities through listening, leadership, care and service to create a truly human connection. Learn and partner with us as we imagine a society in which people care about each other. And listen first.
Adam Salgat
Hello, and welcome to the listen first podcast. My name is Adam Salgat. And with me today is Jules Maloney. She has a new title with our organization. She is now the director of virtual programming, and she’s going to continue being the regional director in Wisconsin. Jules, congratulations on the new title. And how are you doing today?
Jules Maloney
Thank you, Adam. I’m doing well. I am in Wisconsin and connecting with you virtually. And I’m celebrating that we have some beautiful snow happening outside because it is November right now. And we’re talking this is our first real, pretty snow of the year.
Adam Salgat
Yeah, we’re supposed to be getting some up here in Michigan. I always like it when I talk to you, Jules because I don’t get jealous at all. Because when I speak to our cohorts in the southern part of the United States, I’m always like, Gosh, darn it. It’s 15 degrees and you’re wearing a sweater and I’d be in shorts. We suffer
Unknown Speaker
together.
Unknown Speaker
A little bit this time of year. It is beautiful. Like you said, Honestly catch catch us in late January, mid February and see how that’s really the biggest issue. Today’s topic is going to be focusing on acceptance versus agreement. In our our community lessons course we teach reflective listening. And in there we talk about acceptance versus agreement, we state that acceptance is not equal to agreement. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Let’s break this down.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, Adam, I’d say this is this is a hard one. This is this is something that I think people might be able to intellectualize. But actually practicing it can be pretty tough. And I will say that, yeah, much of this work is really inside work that we’re doing internally while we’re working to connect with another person. So for me, when I think about the difference between acceptance, it’s being not equal to agreement. I think about we all have a different lived experience, even people that you’ve grown up with, that you spent a lot of time with, you might have had a lot of shared experiences through life, you still experienced them differently. And so being open to somebody else’s perspective, will help us get towards connection and understanding. So I think that’s the biggest mindset first, that when we want to experience a quality of connection with another person or shared understanding, that doesn’t mean we have to agree with their behaviors, their perspective, or their ideology, whatever it might be. But can we accept maybe the choices they made, or the path that they walked? Or things that led them to the decision that they made? We don’t like it. But can we understand what might have led them to that place or accept that that’s their choice. So it gets a little bit complicated? I think some examples might be helpful. I think the simplest one for me, I’m one of four kids. And we are all very different. We have different politics, we have different lifestyles, we have different ways in which we find engagement in our communities, our career paths, so many different things. So just a simple example, my sister is six years older than me. And I remember hearing her tell stories about something that happened when we were younger. And so many times I’m like, what, what is she saying? That is not what happened, right. And it took me a long time to just pause and say, that’s her experience of that situation. I was there with her. But I’m a different person, I’ve had different experiences than her. So they shape how we received that situation differently, where she might have received something that my parents did as that it was maybe mean, whereas I saw it as playful. There’s so many things that just shaped our experience differently. So for me to be angry with her or make her want to see my way as the right way will never create connection, understanding. But can I accept that that’s her journey and her experience and how she felt in that moment. That’s what this gets to is. It’s it’s not about I need her to agree with my truth of that situation. It’s me get in a place of okay, I’m hearing how she experienced it. It’s different than mine. Where do we go from here and being open to whatever happens next.
Unknown Speaker
So it sounds like you’ve definitely done that reflective and you mentioned in our pre conversation a little bit about how this is internal work, the idea of like looking at how am I going to perceive and accept this happens more internally before it really comes out externally, right?
Unknown Speaker
We don’t always know what’s going on for another person. There’s a an author named Louise Hays. And she has a lot of interesting motivational books, I have a deck of cards from her. They’re called Power thought cards. And there’s one card in particular, and I’m showing it to Adam right now, because I have it handy. And they’re lovely. This is a deck of 64 cards. And every once in a while, choose a card and I’ll just read the reflection. This particular one is stuck with me for so long. And it really directly relates to this concept. And on one side of the card, it says, There is no blame. And on the other side of the card, it says, I released the need to blame anyone, including myself, we’re all doing the best we can with the understanding knowledge and awareness that we have. And when I think about that, it is such a release, it’s such a release to when I hear someone talking about their story, their situation, their reaction, I can release my need to blame them, or that they should be doing this or should be doing that. And just remember, what’s happening for them right now is the best that they can do with the skills, the abilities that they have available to them in this moment. In this moment. Might I long for them to be more skillful, yes. But maybe in this moment, they’re doing the best they can can I accept that? And then be open to exploring more with this person.
Unknown Speaker
Let’s talk a little bit about why acceptance in that space and releasing that blame. Why is it important? If we’re trying to build those good reflective listening skills?
Unknown Speaker
Well, it reminds me of a phrase someone taught me a long time ago. And I know I told you about it before, I think I sent it to you in an email. And I think you enjoyed seeing that. And when the person first told me this, I was like, what is that? And it’s taken me a while to get it. And the phrase was, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy? And initially, I’m like, Well, what do you mean, can I be bow? Because I still want to be right. But really what that’s getting to is if you if you go into the mindset of being right, you miss the opportunity for connection. And that’s where happiness comes. Really in any situation, whether it’s in a workplace situation, committed relationship and your family. For me, it’s about connection, it’s about understanding each other, having a sense of being heard, being seen a place of belonging, these are core human needs. And if we can open up to this mindset of connection, we can more easily move past our judgment and wanting to be right. Again, it doesn’t mean that you accept someone’s behaviors, potentially, it might help you. What’s up?
Unknown Speaker
Sorry, sorry, I was going to mention that in the idea of what level of acceptance are we talking about in certain situations. And I think I wanted to make that clear, simply in the idea that we want to be careful to say you don’t have to accept someone’s abusive behavior.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that’s a really great point, Adam,
Unknown Speaker
whether it’s verbal or physical, we need to keep those types of acceptances in mind.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, it’s a really good point, Adam, when we talk about acceptance versus agreement, there’s always boundaries of safety, right? There’s always boundaries of respect and integrity and, and, and knowing where those boundaries are. And maybe if I give a few examples that might help illustrate sort of the scale of things. You know, sometimes as a parent, I think about some of the decisions that my kids make. And I start to get stimulated, I might be worried about the decisions they’re making. For example, one of my daughters had a friendship where the friend just really would, would do things that sort of took advantage of my daughter, but my daughter kept going back to the friendship and they would be disappointed and sad and, and felt a deep loss. And I wanted to protect my daughter. And so I would want to go in and instead of listening and accepting how she was navigating a relationship, I wanted to be heard for what I thought she should do. I wanted my perspective to be you know what she took, and that created disconnection. But if I could go in and just accept this as her journey, her path, hear what’s going on for her and allow her to drive her choices. I can speak up if I feel like my sense of safety for her is starting to kind of get close. But a lot of times that’s her discovery. That’s what she has to figure out. That’s part of life. If we get to the point where she feels heard and she wants to learn more and maybe asked me my perspective, then I’ll give that to her, but that’s only if she wants to. But when we reflect To listening, and she’s speaking about some of her choices that I’m like, whoo. I don’t know about that. I worry about that. Can I let go of that fear in that judgment and hear what’s going on for her here, why she’s choosing that behavior, that strategy, what’s the deeper need that she’s trying to meet there. So it could be something small about time spent, could be something larger. So I’m sure as parents, we have millions of these examples that come up in the week, like, whether it’s clothing choices, or food choices, or whether kids did or didn’t do their homework or if they hit their sibling. It’s, you know, that’s the strategy they chose in that moment. That’s the behavior to meet their need. We don’t have to accept it. But can we understand that they were struggling with something? Can we accept that they’re navigating something that they’re trying to figure out? They just chose a poor behavior to meet that need? And let’s explore it from there is that do you think that’s making sense and sort of the complexity, but also understanding that there are boundaries of safety?
Unknown Speaker
I believe so. And I enjoy that story. Because it, it triggers a reminder of my nephew, who’s 10 years younger than me. So we’re not very far apart in age, but seeing him grow up in his 20s. And seeing some of the, we could call it a judgement mistakes that he’s made. But now talking to him in his later 20s. And all the while, I’ve just tried to be there. Because while I’m the uncle, I’m not as financially needed, I’m not as directly action oriented needed. I’ve just been able to sit in this space of listening, just had a conversation with him this weekend. And he’s talked about how he’s used up all his words, when it comes to telling people he’s going to do something. And it’s got to be action now. And my point is, while I was listening to him through his 20s, told me some of the things he’s doing, I was trying not to make judgments just because there are things that I didn’t do, or I wouldn’t do. I tried to just be there and listen, and know that he’s got a good base, and I believe he’ll, quote unquote, figure it out, and make his decisions. And he’s, he’s doing that now. He’s finding a way to get through some of the his struggles. And it’s been good to see him, turn that corner in a way and continue down that road. I know, as he as he will continue to put space between prior actions and current action. So I know I’m speaking a little vaguely, but it’s not my story to tell. But in the idea of just being there and supporting and trying to accept him as who he is, and what he’s trying to do. Knowing that he’s not necessarily putting others or people in harm or hate speech or anything along those lines. It’s been good to be a listener, and support when he needs it. And and to kind of now hopefully, see him continue to turn the corner and go down a new path.
Unknown Speaker
And I’m hearing you share that story is it’s giving me so much reassurance. Because to me that so much of what the work we do here at Chapman foundation for caring communities is about how do we be the people in our families in our community who can listen, we’re not the ones that need to solve. But can we listen to others, it might help them make better choices as they navigate their path, whether it’s something small, or in this case, you know, someone who you could be an influencing adult, just by being somebody that they trusted, that they could talk to, and maybe talk about things that couldn’t talk to other people about. And I love that you were able to move past that judgment. But that’s not what I would do. Those are not decisions I would make. But can I accept him for who he is and where he’s at, and just help hold a space for him. Knowing that there is this boundary piece starts going into anything that’s you know, going to be harmful to himself or others. This is different as we move into a different realm here that we’re not talking about, when we start moving into a place for safety’s at risk. But I love that example. That’s, I want to know that my kids have those adults in this world or people that they can talk to their peers or friends. And, and to be that person, we have to be able to move past getting people to agree with us and getting to this place of seeing someone else’s experience as what it is. So I want to I want to give a bigger picture of sort of how this idea of acceptance versus agreement can go and I’m gonna go to kind of an extreme here. Good. I remember when I first heard about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that took place in South Africa at the end of apartheid and the first black government that went into place created these Commission’s where people who committed atrocities were in these Truth and Reconciliation Commission shins, and they heard from family members and people how their behaviors impacted them, or things that they did that took the life of someone else or caused harm. So here are these families and people sitting across the table from each other somebody who caused harm, and the people who received that harm. And they told their stories about what that was like, including the person who caused the harm. Yeah. And what happened in those situations, and many of them not all of them, is, instead of seeing each other as demons, they saw them as humans, who maybe made horrible choices, or people who did something that caused tremendous harm. The goal was forgiveness, of these Commission’s not just punishment, that doesn’t mean that people didn’t have to pay the consequence of their choices and their behaviors. But it helps people share the story of what happened, how did they get there, and have this humaneness to me, you cannot get to even hearing someone who might have caused you harm, if you’re not willing to accept that they had a lived experience different than yours, or they might have been doing the best they could in that moment, with the skills and the ability and the information that they had. So that’s an extreme example, a very, very far extreme example. And a pretty significant one that I think restorative justice has been modeled after and many people long for it requires us to be open to someone else’s experience. But then I’ll just give a really simple experience from work as a facilitator in a previous organization, I was training a new facilitator coming on board, they review the content, they wanted to bring in a new tool, a new way of, of teaching an element in the course. And I absolutely didn’t agree with it. And I didn’t think it was going to work. And I got stuck in my judgment of like, they’re new, they don’t even know this content yet. They don’t understand why we’re doing this. And they already wanted to change it. And I had to take a deep breath. And I had to pause and get curious and just open up and find out. Tell me more about what you’re longing for, you know, what, what’s happening here. And in that space, this person was able to share something that was really meaningful for them. And this, this process, and this tool they wanted to bring in was a strategy that they wanted to bring that they might might help other people feel invigorated about the content. So for me to hear what the energy was behind it, what was important to them, was really, really important. I had to get past my stuff. In order to hear her experience. It was about being heard first, before we ever went anywhere about making any decisions about the content or what we did. I had to hear what was important to her.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you for both of those examples. Like you said that one is on the extreme end, but man oh man, does it bring out a lot of emotion and the idea of like, just what it takes to forgive someone, and what it would take to try to put yourself in a state of acceptance. And then in your second example, you said something that stuck out for me, which was you were stuck in judgment at first. And I think that’s something to speak on quickly as the idea of like trying to get out of that state of judgment. So we can look at accepting. And I want to jump into the idea that, you know, this sits in that less serious realm, in the idea of what we have coming up in that there’s a lot of holiday celebrations on the horizon from recording this right now. And it should be out Thanksgiving week, Thanksgiving is a weekend a couple days away. It’s often you know, joked about as a time of family turmoil because you know, people can stay in their in laws or their aunts or uncles or maybe a cousin who flies a particular flag that you don’t like, you know, people just don’t get along. Sometimes, we have such opposite views and everything or maybe is expressed as simply as they’re annoying. And you know, it could be that simple that you just find them annoying, but what can we do my relative starts talking about the President or governor or inflation or yelling about a drag show happening in the area. Something very simple, like even complaining about the lumpy mashed potatoes that maybe you saw, you saw your mom working so hard on and now they’re complaining about, you know, or whomever might have made the potato mom or dad or friend. I mean, these are less serious than your example from before. But the everyday example, that helps us get through states of judgment and into states of acceptance.
Unknown Speaker
Well, it goes back to that phrase, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy when I think about sitting around the table with my family? Do I want to push my opinion forward? If somebody says something that I don’t agree with, and I want to be rights, that’s gonna probably lead to an argument. It’s going to be forcing my opinion and telling the other person they’re wrong. And guess what people are not going to be happy. Instead, can I accept that this person has a different perspective? I have a different way of being a different lens on life. I don’t have to agree with it. They don’t have to agree with with me. But can we find places where we are joyful to connect? Can we recognize that there are some underlying needs where we do have a shared reality, we just may have different ways of meeting those needs. You know, my need for fun and play might show up differently in family gatherings than it might be for my siblings or for my parents. And so I think first, when it comes to holidays, if folks can, is prepared before you even have guests over, or before you go to that event and just know, there’s going to be certain things that might trigger you. And can you recognize that that might be stimulating your values, it might be challenging, what’s important to you? But the relationship, I’m guessing is also important to you. So can you beforehand, recognize there might be some things you’re just not going to talk about? Because you have different perspectives, and that agreement isn’t going to happen? So can you accept it? I’ll give a quick example. Recently, when I saw my dad, I hadn’t seen him in a very long time. We don’t see each other that often, typically holidays, and the first hour of spending with him. After not seeing him for almost a year, we have a different sense of spirituality. And that first hour he spent telling me I was wrong, and that my beliefs were wrong. And in the past, I would have shut down or I would have left the room or I would have pushed back whatever that might have been. But in this time, I recognize I actually wanted to have connection with my dad, because he’s at, you know, his life is not long in this world from here on out. The numbers prove that. Yeah, so do do I want to argue with him about who’s right. Instead, I literally said to him, I’m really hearing this is important to you, I can accept that this is something that you’re concerned about. That was so liberating. For me, it was just gave us huge relief to just accept this he cares about. That’s why he’s speaking to me, he’s not going to change my path, he’s not going to change my values. And I’m not going to change his. But in that moment, that was his strategy to show care for me, that he wanted me to be in a way that he thought was cared for and safe. And on a path that made sense to him. It was such a relief to be able to do that. It was so hard, it was still painful in a lot of ways to know that we’re that different. But to accept that it was just, that’s what’s important to him. And he needed to speak to it, I was able to release that. So if people can do that on a small way, someone at the table starts speaking about something to say, I’m getting that this is important to them that this concerns them, this stimulates their values, it stimulates me differently. And I don’t have to make them believe what I believe. And I don’t have to believe what they believe. So can we hear each other for what’s important to us and accept, that’s where we’re at, there’s probably not a decision that needs to be made, there’s probably not a problem that needs to be solved. But being able to accept somebody from where they’re at in that moment for what’s important to them. There’s no harm being caused, right? That’s what we’re going for.
Unknown Speaker
I think you said something in there just a moment ago about there’s probably not a decision that needs to be made, you know, so in the end, what are you? What are the two of you going to accomplish if you sit there and not necessarily you and your father, but anyone, whatever their conflict might be, if you’re not sitting in a decision making space, or you’re both sitting in a space where you’re just looking to be combative. What are you going to accomplish by yelling your things, your beliefs at them or yelling your thoughts on a particular subject that them and then and then them doing that back to you if neither of you are willing to listen to the other, especially when no decision is being made about anything? Well, I mean, you’re not, you’re not really serving a large purpose. You know, you’re what you’re doing. You’re filling, you’re filling a need inside yourself. And I can understand how that comes out. Sometimes I think even in arguments with my wife, I’ve sat back and I’ve said, Well, why did I do? Or say it the way I did? And I know when I reflect i times I’m like, Well, that was a need, that I felt like I just needed to do it. And I don’t know, I look back I say, well, had I gone a different route, we could have had a much different conversation. I could have been much more productive. I could have expressed my feelings on a particular subject or an action that was made by her. It could have gone much differently if I would have taken a little bit of time to calm down and decide the right way as opposed to being combative. I was listening to a podcast recently about a doctor patient relationship. And the doctor said, you know they were very different people and he made a statement We weren’t even talking about acceptance versus agreement, we were just talking about their relationship and how, you know, they’ve come to grow together and know each other and support one another outside of just doctor patient. And he said, You don’t have to think the same way to love somebody. And that just really, really triggered like myself and the idea of like, man, that’s something that’s a really good reminder right now. And probably every day, whether we’re heading into holidays, or election season, or anything that is, or I mentioned this, you know, even if you’re football fans and running and things like that, you don’t have to think the same way or to love somebody. And and I think you’d like that quote, too. I’d like you to reflect on that.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, for sure. What a different world this would be if people kept that that mindset on the ready. One example that I, when I share with my friends that my partner and I, we don’t vote the same. Many of my friends are shocked. They can’t believe it, like how, how can you do that? How can you be in a relationship where you have so many differences, and it’s like, well, we have a few differences. We don’t have a ton of differences, that one piece doesn’t define us. We have to be careful of the US in them that wanting to be right can get us into when we want people to agree with us, we get into this place where we’re risking creating division. And there’s so many things that come up for me in that space. If I spend all my time with people who think just like me, I’m not challenged to grow. I’m not challenged to think beyond what I already know, from my lived experience. So think about that. When you’re at the holiday table. And someone starts bringing up something that challenges you. It’s like, oh, this might be hard to do. But think, Oh, what a gift this person is giving me right now. Right to to expand the way I think, because my way is not the only way. Right? Other people think differently. What can I learn from this? How can I be open to seeing people’s different perspectives, I don’t have to agree with it. But it might expand my understanding of how people have gotten to where they’re at. And we have to be careful of these false boxes that are all around us that we want to put people in. And I’ll just say like things like politics at the dinner table for holidays, and families can be tough. Those are us in them boxes. Instead, can we find what those underlying needs are. Because if we remember, every behavior is an expression of a need. And if we can go into that space, when someone’s sharing with us, it’s like, oh, this is their, this is their way of meeting their needs. This is their choice right now, I may not like it, I may not even understand it. But this is their choice is different than mine. So I think it’s important to really recognize that we can be very different, and we can still love each other, we can still value each other. To me, I don’t I don’t want to be in a homogenous society. I want to try things that are different or that challenge me, I may not like it in the moments, the judgment might come up when I’m off caught off guard with something very different. But can I lean on these skills like reflective listening, and seeking empathy and seeking understanding, and being curious about what led this person to think that way or be that way I may not know or find that out. But that curiosity helps me be open to something different. And I can accept that space, instead of wanting to make them come my way, or push allow them to push me into going their way. I’ll give you another example. Sometimes being heard, is really about just being seen and accepted for our truth. It’s not about being right. And I’ll give this in the example of committed relationships. I was in a situation last summer, where my partner and I had gone on a large trip with a group of friends. We went to the West Coast. And we’re exploring for several days, and we had split up, and we’re all gonna get together for dinner. And the rest of the group had ended up having a really difficult thing. We didn’t understand that we didn’t know that. And when it came time to get together for dinner, the communication through texts was very weird. And we started to drive into town to meet them for dinner. And when we got to the restaurant, we discovered that through the lack of communication or confusing communication, they picked a restaurant that didn’t have enough room for my partner Jeff and I to be at the table with them or in the restaurant at all. And I was dumbfounded. I was shocked. And so we drove back to our Airbnb while they had dinner in a nice restaurant. And the whole way in the car, I was crying. And I was yelling I was like, who does that like What does that who breaks an agreement, we were all gonna get together. They didn’t communicate, I was just shocked by that behavior. And I knew that Jeff was he was understanding what was happening for those folks. But I didn’t care, I just needed to be seen for what was important to me in that moment that I didn’t feel included. I didn’t feel like I belonged in the group in that moment, because I didn’t feel like they considered my needs. But they didn’t have the capacity, it goes back to this card that I have, that says, we’re doing the best we can with the understanding knowledge and awareness we have in that moment, they had a crappy day, they were hungry, they needed to eat, we were not part of that consideration. But in that moment, Jeff knew he just needed to give me the space to do what I was doing. And he did his best just to hear me. I know, he didn’t accept a lot of my perspective. And that’s okay. He didn’t, excuse me. He didn’t agree with how much I was upset. But he accepted that inclusion and belonging was important to me. And that was very stimulated. So being heard, and being seen is about people, accepting where we are in that moment, and who we are and what’s going on, and not telling me like, just get over it. It’s not a big deal. They had a bad day, don’t worry about it. It’s not about you, I needed to be heard and accepted those things. And those needs were stimulated. So think about that, too. When you’re in a space of needing to be heard. It isn’t about pushing to be right. It’s just being seen for what’s important for you in that moment. And that’s what acceptance is.
Unknown Speaker
Kudos to Jeff. Because as you’re telling that story, I’m thinking to myself, if this were me and my wife, I think I’d be saying things like, what about what they’ve been through? What about this? And what about what they blah, blah, blah? Have you thought of that? And I’m thinking to myself, hearing you say, I just need to be heard well, that well, that’s my wife, my, in my running this through my brain and me and her. That’s what she needs. So why do I need to jump all over it? It’s such a good reminder. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker
It’s about can you accept that their experience is true for them in that moment. Now, I think if you had Jeff telling you the same story, you might just been really terrified in that moment. But really just went to silence. When we think of the five reflective listening skills. He went to silence because I needed to vent, I needed to just get out what was true for me.
Unknown Speaker
So jewels as we wrap up the podcast today. So I’d like to ask, what is today’s key takeaway that you want our listeners to think about? into work on going forward?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, Adam, when I think about acceptance versus agreement, for me, the key takeaway is remembering that we have different lived experiences, we have different truths. And I’m gonna, I’m gonna try to get this across in the podcast. And for anyone who’s sitting in front of a keyboard, you can look at your keyboard for help. But if you have pen and paper, you can try drawing it as well. What I want you to visualize is two stick figures, you can draw them out, or just imagine them and they’re facing each other. In between them is the number nine, or the number six, if you look at your keyboard, and you look at the six and the nine, you’ll see they’re actually the exact same shape. It’s just one’s upside down to the other. So when one stick figure looks at the object, they see the number nine, when the other stick figure looks at the object, they see the number six is either of them wrong. They’re not. So they both are expressing their truth. And neither of them are wrong. So that for me is a key takeaway. When I think about acceptance versus agreement, when I’m talking and listening to another person, they’re sharing with me their truth, they might see a nine, I might see a six. But can I accept their truth that they see the nine and really listened to that. So that image helps you take that forward? And remember, we all have a different lived experience? And when can we open up to hearing someone else’s truth, even if we don’t agree with it?
Unknown Speaker
Thank you for that visual, I greatly appreciate it. And I don’t normally jump in on key takeaways, but I’m just going to reiterate the line from the doctor that I shared earlier. You don’t have to think the same way to love somebody. I think that’s just a really good, really good something to keep in your mind. Maybe I’ll get it tattooed on my forearm, we’ll see
Unknown Speaker
at least a t shirt so that other people can see it and be inspired.
Unknown Speaker
That’s a good way to put it to. Jules, thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing all your knowledge, wisdom and examples and greatly appreciated.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you, Adam. I love how you invite people into the conversation and you bring your wisdom in You and I think this just helps us all be better. So thank you