The experience of the OCL class is profound for many of our alumni. Amy Phoenix, Alumni, and Intern shares how the class impacted her personally and with her family and parenting approach. We all have the power to change……how do we want to use that power?
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Speaker 1:
Welcome to the OCL Podcast. Our vision is to create people centered leaders at home, at work and in our communities who lead through the powerful lens of empathetic listening. Our podcast will help refresh your skills and sharpen your tools as we do the important work of truly human leadership together.
Adam Salgett:
Hello, and welcome to Our Community Listens Podcast. I’m Adam Salgett and I’m here today with Amy Phoenix, OCL alumni and intern. Today, we’re going to chat about how OCL skills and content are impacting just one of our alumni. There are so many stories out there, but this is just one of them. Could you tell our listeners a little bit about what has impacted you the most with your experience in the OCL class, Amy?
Amy Phoenix:
Yes. One of the most profound aspects of the training for me was the experiential nature of how the material was presented. Rather than it being us being taught or lectured to, we were really invited to be curious and question our experience, practice and self reflect on some very valuable skills, which felt really powerful to me.
Adam Salgett:
Have you noticed throughout your life that you’re more of a learner in that way? You like to experience things as opposed to just a checklist if somebody goes through it on the board?
Amy Phoenix:
Yeah, it’s much more powerful for me and my ability to really integrate and utilize whatever it is that I’m interacting with.
Adam Salgett:
So basically it really drew you in, then?
Amy Phoenix:
It did. It really did draw me in, for sure. I’ve participated in various trainings over the years, and many of them have felt like someone’s trying to get me to believe something or to change based on what they feel would be important for me to change.
Adam Salgett:
Right.
Amy Phoenix:
Like their own agenda, and sometimes this is effective for me, if my values are aligned with what they’re sharing.
Adam Salgett:
Sure, that makes sense.
Amy Phoenix:
Yeah. But with OCL, it just felt like I had more of an opportunity to continue growing in my own self awareness, connection in my relationships. And it was from my own personal reflections that came during the training versus what they were telling me to think or believe.
Adam Salgett:
Right. So we jumped in and directly to how OCL has affected you, which makes sense for our listeners out there. But I would like to learn a little bit more about your Amy. So if you’re willing to share a little bit about your life, tell us a little bit.
Amy Phoenix:
For sure, for sure. First and foremost, or maybe most importantly right now is I’m a mom of five, a single mom of five, actually.
Adam Salgett:
That’s amazing. I’m the youngest of five. So treat that youngest one the best you can, okay?
Amy Phoenix:
Absolutely. I really try and treat them all well, but I’m sure that they don’t always think that way.
Adam Salgett:
I’m sure.
Amy Phoenix:
So mothering has been my main thing. My oldest is almost 18. Oh wow, that’s big and my youngest is five, so they’re staggered in there. And so, that’s a full-time thing really right there.
Adam Salgett:
Yeah, it absolutely is.
Amy Phoenix:
And along with that, I’m also currently working on completing my bachelor degree with a focus in psychology and human services. And so, part of that is the internship with OCL.
Adam Salgett:
Awesome.
Amy Phoenix:
Yes, definitely. And I also facilitate a women’s empowerment program in our correctional facility in Saginaw. I’m part of the YWCA doing that and I facilitate mindfulness meditation with various groups, parent education, parents who are looking to collaborate more with their kids, positive discipline and that. And also, parents that have anger issues, working through that. And I also share some Henna body art and then when I actually have downtime …
Adam Salgett:
Yeah. It doesn’t sound like there’s a lot of downtime in there.
Amy Phoenix:
Not really. I try and create some here and there, but I do really like to take walks and look at the sunrise and the sunset and we have a couple of dogs and they go on the walks with me and I like to practice yoga and connect with good friends. I like to read and write too, but reading happens during the course of a regular day, so I get plenty of that in.
Adam Salgett:
That’s outstanding. It sounds like you definitely have a lot going on for a mom of five and a lot of extra activities as well. So I can see how the skills could be beneficial and supportive to you along the way that you’ve learned in OCL. We’re so grateful to have you as part of OCL Amy. Could you share with us how you have seen OCL skills impacting you in different aspects of your life? Which one would you like to talk about first?
Amy Phoenix:
Listening. I feel like the ability to engage in real deep listening where my attention is solely focused on the person who is sharing is integral to the health of every relationship I have, whether it’s personal or professional. Honestly, I think it’s probably the biggest gift I can bring to a relationship is to be able to listen and meet someone where they are.
Adam Salgett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Amy Phoenix:
And so, for me, I feel like listening well, helps me understand people more clearly, what the person’s experiencing and then share empathy and understanding when that’s needed. So with my kids, there’s almost always something going on and it’s very easy for interruptions to happen.
Adam Salgett:
Yeah, I can imagine, especially with five of them, because they’ve all got other aspects in their life happening, right?
Amy Phoenix:
They do. And in part, because I’m the only adult in the home, everything is directed towards me and me being able to meet their needs or help them learn how to meet their own needs. So yeah, you hear that deep breath. That’s what it’s like. But when I slow down and I really listen with them, our problems become easier to solve. The kids feel heard, even if they’re still salty with me or their siblings and we can connect more meaningfully overall. So even if we’re in the middle of a really big conflict, or it feels big to me because it’s at the end of the day and I’m tired, we can help each other and I can help them by slowing down to listen to be able to help each other understand what’s going on for the other person.
And then somehow find some sort of solution to the problem. And I think it also helps when I slow down to have a more meaningful connection with the kids in terms of there’s a lot of distractions, I think, especially these days, we have more distractions than we used to when I was a kid. My dad had the newspaper, right? And I didn’t always like that he was looking at the newspaper and not talking to me, but now we have our digital devices that add another layer to the different things that we can get distracted with even if it’s helpful for us. We’re going through our calendar, we’re working on something or we’re learning about something, there’s more distractions. And so, I feel like when I make the effort to really be with them and be present with them in that way, it just always makes a positive difference for us every time.
Adam Salgett:
Absolutely. And hearing you mention the newspaper, like you said, you noticed it was something that maybe you didn’t like, but the thing about the newspaper was it didn’t ding, it didn’t make noise, it didn’t draw your attention away as specific as a cell phone or our computer’s can.
Amy Phoenix:
Definitely.
Adam Salgett:
You’ve noticed though, listening to your kids has really made an impact on your parenting. As a man with a two year old, she’s talking a lot, but I try to give her my attention. She sometimes hands me my phone when it’s across the room, as in, it’s expected to be in my hand the whole time and I feel bad about that. So it’s things that I want to change as I get older. Have you found making changes like that really has improved your relationship with your kids?
Amy Phoenix:
It does. It really does. I feel like they’re such sponges and they’re always watching us and I’m human, I’m not perfect and I definitely make mistakes, but as I slow down and create that space for that listening and that connection, I think it gives them a little oasis. In the middle of life, to know that that person cares about them and can connect with them in that way, and I think listening can take different forms. Sometimes they’re, it’s funny when you mentioned your daughter bringing you the phone, there’s so much that can attract them to with the phones, the pictures and the games and all this stuff. And listening, I think, can take a form of just being with someone while they’re doing something and hearing about their experience. So it doesn’t always have to be everything is aside, but it’s that full attention and the experience that we’re sharing together at that time.
Adam Salgett:
So were there any other important skills you learned during class that spoke to you?
Amy Phoenix:
Definitely.
Adam Salgett:
What else?
Amy Phoenix:
Effective confrontation is another piece that I’m really working on. The way that it’s shared through OCL is not natural for me and I had not learned to that. Matter of fact, I’m not really sure that I ever learned a format for confrontation in my whole life of 42 years.
Adam Salgett:
I had not, no.
Amy Phoenix:
So when I say it’s unnatural for me, it’s not like the OCL format of confrontations not normal for me, it’s healthy, effective confrontation. It hadn’t been presented to me in such a beautiful format. And my MO tends to be peacekeeper with a serving of feistiness on the side when I feel challenged, which those two things can go against each other at times. And when I use the OCL skills for confrontation, I noticed more calm and understanding all around. It just melts some of the tension, but I’m still working as supporting myself and others when we’re in the box that confrontation can put us in, depending on the intensity of emotions surrounding the situation. That part is not as easy for me sometimes, especially when it’s with someone that I’m close with.
Adam Salgett:
Confrontation can be really challenging and it sounds like you’re really dedicated to growing the skill and you’ve noticed how it can have a positive impact on your life. We’ve talked a little bit before. Can you tell me about the experience that you have and what really hit home about the bat and the bended knee?
Amy Phoenix:
Yeah, definitely. That’s a really big piece for me as well. The whole curriculum is really powerful, but the distinction between approaching others with a bat or a bent knee really hits home. When I was a child, I had an experience where I was overpowered by an adult I trusted, and it really does still impact me to this day. As a mom, once my oldest child hit toddlerhood, I found myself wielding my power around in ways that weren’t healthy for either of us. And I felt like I was continuing the cycle of misuse of power between adults and children and quite honestly, it really sickened me. I didn’t want to be that person.
Adam Salgett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Amy Phoenix:
And so, the past 15 years of my life have really been largely focused on really delving into what power is for me and for human beings and how it can be misused and turned into force and how we can change that tendency to own our power and share our power with others. So, although I didn’t know it was going to leave me here, a large part of that has been developing a mindfulness practice that really helps me identify when I’m operating from a place that’s teetering on the bat. So I can check in with myself and notice what that feels like in my body and my mind and modify to come with a bent knee.
Adam Salgett:
Okay.
Amy Phoenix:
Yeah. And there are many nuances to that for me, which relate to fight, flight, freeze reaction. And it’s really interesting to explore and release the tension that comes along with misusing power. Through the mindfulness practice, I’ve been able to observe the different things that go on in me when I’m going that direction.
Adam Salgett:
Okay.
Amy Phoenix:
And over the years, I’ve been able to really address and heal a lot of those reactions in myself, so that I don’t have that tendency as strongly as I did before. And I’m also really aware of the different pieces that would contribute to that. Like a lot of stress, not a lot of sleep, maybe I didn’t eat well. Somebody had a very serious situation. Those stressors can contribute to the tendency for me to use my power to gain control in a situation in an unhealthy way. So anyway, I’m grateful for the practice because approaching others with the bent knee offers me and those I communicate with more freedom, and relaxation and collaboration and heartfelt connection than the bat ever could and ever can.
Adam Salgett:
Yeah. I hear the misuse of power can have a big impact on you and that’s very important to you for the influence that you have on people to be intentional. It seems like the OCL training really supports you with the transition from bat to bent knee. You mentioned a little bit a while back about when your kid was a toddler and I have a toddler now, and I shared this story with you and I’ll share it with everyone now. Just this past weekend when we were getting ready to leave, when she did not want to go, I scooped her up and put her in the car. And then when we were talking about this, I thought to myself, “Was I enforcing my will on her and where does it become an issue, as opposed to me taking the time to listen to why she did not want to leave?”
I didn’t do it out of anger. I didn’t do it very physically harming or anything along those lines, but it does make me wonder if I’m not careful, will that continue to happen as she’s three, four, five, six, and all of a sudden it does become aggressive maybe if I’m not in the right mood. And those are the types of things that we certainly want to avoid. We never want to spank our kids or be upset at them physically for things that we can definitely go at in a much better manner. As a mom who’s probably been through those experiences, what are your thoughts along those lines?
Amy Phoenix:
Yeah, I feel like it is a worthy exploration to use your awareness to really see what’s going on inside myself when this happens. Is there tension in my body somewhere? Do I notice my throat, my hands, my arms, parts of my body feel tense that’s a signal, there’s something going on that’s a stressor and I think it can be a precursor to a forceful or aggressive action. It doesn’t always lead there, but that’s one piece to pay attention to. And then to be able to discern, how do I want to respond in these kinds of situations? And parenting is such a learn as you go thing. That we have these situations where it’s like, huh, there was something that felt a little bit off about that or I questioned myself about that.
And with little ones that aren’t necessarily bought into the whole team effort all the time, it can be a process to teach them how to do that without coming across or feeling forceful. And it’s one thing I think to be physically forceful and not pick up somebody and move them or impose our will on them and it’s another thing to be outright abusive. And I think that they can learn that, okay, when we have to go somewhere, we need to try and work together and we can hear their feelings and say, “I really hear you don’t want to go and we do need to leave now, so I’m going to pick you up and I’m going to put you in the seat and we’re going to get buckled in the car seat together,” or something along that line where they’re being acknowledged, their feelings are being acknowledged. It can feel different to do that than just pick up somebody and take them when they’re protesting to do something even though you know as a parent it has to be done. At least that’s my experience.
Adam Salgett:
I would say replaying it all in my head right now. Had I done what you just mentioned about going through the steps of what we’re going to do and why we’re going to do it as opposed to just doing it without saying anything, it probably would have eased my mind quite a bit to know that I at least tried to communicate what was happening as opposed to we got to go and boom, pick you up and put you in. But to take the time to explain would have put my mind at ease, I think, when I think about the situation.
Amy Phoenix:
Yeah. And those are some of the gifts of learning as we parent and then talking to each other as parents, I think, that we can learn together. So I’m glad that you brought it up. And this ties into one aspect that I really love about the OCL curriculum in this regard, because we really dive head first into the experience of what it feels like to have power used against us and how that doesn’t feel very good. And I really appreciate the way the class doesn’t get into details, so they’re not trying to dig up people’s trauma.
Adam Salgett:
Sure, right.
Amy Phoenix:
And I remember that from our class, but it does focus instead on the feelings and because how we feel is really where it’s at, we learned to identify how a certain approach feels and the results it creates. And then we can feel a deep need to modify our actions to create different results. Maybe not repeat those things that happen to us that felt so bad when someone did use it power over us or against us. So as I participated in that aspect of the training, it really deepened and affirmed my own experience and belief that coming with the bat is not necessary. We feel like it is at times to get things done, and in life threatening situations, we may need to do something drastic to survive. But for the majority of our communication, the bat will only create damage in our connections. So we don’t need to be walking around with a bat like we’re in a survival game every day in our lives.
Adam Salgett:
Right, it’s not the Walking Dead.
Amy Phoenix:
Right. We can set the bat down, we need to set it down and our relationships will really thank us. And when we set the bat down, then we can make a choice of how we want to deal with hard situations. Effective confrontation with OCL skills become simple, although not easy, but with the three choices of accept, adjust or ask for change.
Adam Salgett:
Yeah. Misty Janks is actually going to talk more about that in our next podcast, the three moves that you just mentioned, accept, adjust, or ask for change when faced with a problem. Amy, thank you so much for sharing your experience with OCL and how it’s really helped you listen deeper, transition from using a bat to bent knee and connect with your kids more. As we close today, what would you like to leave our listeners with?
Amy Phoenix:
Thanks Adam. At the end of our lives, I think we’ll look back and we’ll see at least one thing very clearly, how we have showed up in our relationships. We’re sure to see some pain moments as we all have them and with some dedication to implementing the OCL skills, we’re also sure to see some heart mending reconciliations, some moments of deep listening and connection as well as some simple experiences of love shared between people who deeply care about each other’s wellbeing.
Adam Salgett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Amy Phoenix:
We don’t get to choose all of what we experience, but we do get to choose a lot of what we bring to our experiences. OCL helps us do that with purpose and for that, I am very grateful.
Adam Salgett:
Amy, it’s been a pleasure speaking to you this afternoon. We really value the work that you have served OCL with through your internship. Sharing insights of how this content has meaning in your family and your life inspires others to relate their learning to their environments. Personally, I know you have done a lot of editing and evaluation of some of our media content behind the scenes and that saves the team a great deal of time as we start to prepare that content for publishing, so thank you. If you would like more information about our community lessons, visit our Facebook page and don’t forget, alumni, you are the message.
Speaker 1:
You’ve just listened to the OCL Podcast. Thank you for joining us. For additional resources and engagement opportunities, find us on Facebook at OCL Michigan Alumni or ourcommunitylistens.org.