Reflective listening is easy to do if you sincerely care about others. Stopping what you are doing, focusing in and really listening to others matters. Being able to respond reflectively with a fact and feeling helps others know that you are both listening and caring. Listen in as we review reflective listening and try to make the reflective response a little easier.
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Speaker 1:
Welcome to the OCL podcast. Our vision is to create people-centered leaders at home, at work, and in our communities who lead through the powerful lens of empathetic listening. Our podcast will help refresh your skills and sharpen your tools as we do the important work of truly human leadership together.
Adam Salgat:
Hello and welcome to the Our Community Listens podcast. I’m Adam Salgat, and here with me today is Sarah Weisbarth, Our Community Listens professor, who’s back with us to tell me all about her car.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Because you listened so well the first time.
Adam Salgat:
Today’s topic is reflective listening. And if anyone listened to episode six, they know that we shared a story about her Buick. And I did a really great job of reflectively listening and just jumping into my story about buying a new Ford. So today, we’re going to try and hone my reflective listening skills and work through that. How’s that sound, Sarah?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Sounds like a great plan, Adam. But first, I just want to tell you that I really appreciate your time and talents in producing these podcasts for us. Our listeners are finding them incredibly helpful. I know Leanne and I have enjoyed doing them. And I know our professors that are going to come on board here in a little bit are excited to jump in and share their thoughts with our listeners too. And we couldn’t do it without your time and your talents, and your efforts. So thank you very much.
Adam Salgat:
You guys can’t tell out there, but I’m blushing. So thank you. I appreciate that. And this opportunity has meant a lot, and I really am thankful for it. So thank you.
Sarah Weisbarth:
You bet. We appreciate you.
Adam Salgat:
All right. Go for it. Let’s get into reflective listening.
Sarah Weisbarth:
All right. So first, it’s test time. Do you remember the components of reflective listening? There are five of them.
Adam Salgat:
The only five things I remember are the names for all my fingers. So, no, I do not remember the five steps of reflective listening.
Sarah Weisbarth:
All right. So first off, they’re not necessarily steps. They’re components. They’re things that we’re going to involve in the action of being a reflective listener.
Adam Salgat:
Okay.
Sarah Weisbarth:
All right. So the first things that are really the easiest are the attentive behavior and the acknowledgments. That’s where we’re really paying attention to the person and acknowledging that they’re listening. Attending behavior would look like if you came into my office and said, “Hey, Sarah, you have a minute?” I would turn away from my computer. Maybe if it was my laptop, I’d flip my laptop down. I’d turned my phone over. For me, I actually have to put it in my purse. I’d spin my chair. So maybe I’m facing you, make eye contact… Very specific behaviors that would be evident to you that you now have my attention. That’s why they’re called attending behavior.
Adam Salgat:
I think one of the biggest ones that people probably struggle with is our cell phones. And people think, “Well, I can listen to this person and pay attention to what they’re saying and still scroll on my Facebook feed or look at that recipe.” Or whatever it might be. But truthfully, you should put it down.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yep. And I see this actually in coffee shops and restaurants all the time where people are glancing up and listening and then glancing down and scrolling and glancing up and listening. But really, are they giving the other person their full attention?
Adam Salgat:
Right. And in my twenties, when I was with my buddies, and we were just hanging out on our laptops chit-chatting about sports or hockey or whatever it might be, that that was fine. But we weren’t trying to share real, deep, personal information. We were just, quote, hanging out.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Right.
Adam Salgat:
But it changes when someone comes with an expectation.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Absolutely. If someone’s really coming, wanting to connect with you and talk with you, and maybe share a concern or a problem, or even just vent something that’s going on in their life that’s meaningful, I’m sure they’d appreciate it if you were paying attention.
Adam Salgat:
Right. Okay. So you’ve closed your laptop. You’ve given that person their attention. You’ve maybe changed your body position like you mentioned, eye contact.
Sarah Weisbarth:
I’ve also acknowledged them, right? So I’m using maybe some verbal cues like, uh-huh, mm-hmm, oh, just maybe some head nods… Like right now, as I’m talking to you demonstrating them, my hand is making this gesture of like, “Oh, keep talking.” Inviting you in to continue to talk. So I see acknowledgments as almost the verbal way that I’m telling you that I’m paying attention and that you matter to me.
Adam Salgat:
So I can see why it’s important to demonstrate in words and actions that you’re really listening to someone. So those are two of them, correct?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yep.
Adam Salgat:
And they were?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Attending behavior and acknowledgements.
Adam Salgat:
Right. Attending behavior and acknowledgements. And what are the next couple?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Well, your first statement back to me was an excellent reflective response. And then that, “What else?” Well, that’s that door opener, Adam. So the door openers are kind of the next step.
Adam Salgat:
So door openers are statements that invite people to, I’m guessing here, but opening a door, inviting them to come in or inviting them to say more?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yes. Absolutely. We call it emotional hospitality, right? Like, you’ve come. You’ve knocked on my door. You want my attention. I’m giving you my attention. I’m acknowledging that you’re there. And now I’m saying, “Come on in. Tell me more.” Which happens to be the typical door opener that we all use. It gets a little old sometimes.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. Tell me more?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah.
Adam Salgat:
I would say, with certain people, you might not even need to use these door openers. Certain people are just going to start sharing.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yes. Door openers are really when there’s that moment where someone pauses, and you can tell where like, Oh, they want to keep talking, but it’s a natural pause, is as an encouragement for them to keep talking.
Adam Salgat:
Gotcha.
Sarah Weisbarth:
That’s it. “Tell me more.” Even, “Oh, I’m listening.” Right? Just assuring them like, “Wow, I’m here for you.” You could actually use that one, “I’m right here.” If they’re sharing something that maybe isn’t a deep problem, maybe something that’s just an excitement, maybe a future vacation or things that are going well in their family, you can be like, “Well, that’s interesting.” Right? Just some phrases and statements to just keep them talking.
Adam Salgat:
I like that you brought that up because I think oftentimes in our conversations about how to connect with people, I think we have a tendency to lean towards, they have a problem, an issue, or just they need to spill their guts on something. But it’s not always negative or sad or something that they’re struggling with. It might be connecting with them about the vacation they’re planning, about the new promotion at work, or about the exciting new thing they’ve done. And it’s also important to connect and have the skillsets for those types of conversations, right?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yes, absolutely. It’s just a way to continue a conversation and to let that person know that you actually care about what they’re sharing, and I think about this. I’ll use my husband as an example. He switched job roles and started doing landscaping, and he would come, home and he was super excited about how many wheelbarrows of dirt and how many loads of stone, right? Thank you for laughing, Adam. Because you can probably see my face right now.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. Well, I can see someone coming home and you… Sorry, I’ll let you finish your story.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Oh, no. It’s great because if you could see my face right now, you would see basically I pretty much don’t care about loads of stone and wheelbarrows of dirt. And unfortunately, out of my mouth one day, I said that to my husband, right? A better door opener would have been, “Wow, that’s exciting.” Or, “Wow, that’s hard work.”
Adam Salgat:
Right.
Sarah Weisbarth:
I mean, just something to encourage him to talk more about his work. Not necessarily how many yards of stone he held.
Adam Salgat:
Sure. When I run out of door openers, I often want to just start asking questions, just peppering them with questions. Anything I can think of to maybe keep the conversation going.
Sarah Weisbarth:
So it sounds like you’re wanting to just fill the space with questions because you don’t really know what you should be saying.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. I think that’s natural sometimes. Especially if it’s someone we don’t know too well.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Okay. So we really have to be careful with questions. So it’s easiest and safest just not to go there.
Adam Salgat:
Why do we need to be careful about questions? Seems natural to me.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Well, let’s think about it this way. If we ask questions because we need to know, right? Like if I have this burning need to know more about the story you’re sharing with me, the situation, is it just a detail I need to know? Is it something I need to know? Do I have just this burning personal curiosity that I need to know? That’s all about me. That’s not really helpful to you. That doesn’t make my attention be on you. It makes me focus on my need to know.
Adam Salgat:
Right. And I can understand when it’s a crucial conversation, or they’re coming to you with a need or just whatever it might be in those more serious situations that might come across the wrong way.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. It really can. You can actually see conversations derail. If someone’s sharing a problem or a concern, it doesn’t have to be super deep. But if they’re sharing something with you… I actually see this happen with my kid. He can be super excited about whatever happened in gym, and I’ll be like, “Oh, well, what game are you playing?” And he will literally shift the conversation to have to answer my question.
Adam Salgat:
Right.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Instead, I’d be better off going, “Well, that sounds exciting.” Or, “That sounds like you’re having fun.” And that will prompt him to then keep telling me more without me really having to ask him to tell me more.
Adam Salgat:
Right.
Sarah Weisbarth:
But asking that question almost arrests and stops his thought process of what he actually wanted to share with me.
Adam Salgat:
And you’re trying to avoid that as much as possible.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Absolutely.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yep. So we have the attending behavior, the acknowledgments, and the door openers, right? So those are just the intro to the conversation. That just gets the conversation going, right? So avoiding those questions as door openers. From door openers, we should actually be shifting either towards silence or reflective response.
Adam Salgat:
Silence doesn’t go over super well on a podcast.
Sarah Weisbarth:
I was literally almost having anxiety that you weren’t responding right away to what I had just said. Silence can be a little disruptive.
Adam Salgat:
Well, in real life, silence… I can do that. Just be quiet. It’s easy enough.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Well, in theory. You’d actually be surprised. Because I think sometimes when people are silent, and we have this need to fill the space, right? So then we feel like, “Well, I better say something. I have to say something. Well, let me just start talking about a story that’s similar to what they’re sharing with me or, I don’t know, maybe ask a question because I’m really good at that. And I want to know more information.” I don’t know how to explain this quite right. Silence isn’t just about me learning to close my mouth because I feel like that’s the part that I can physically do. I sometimes have to bite the inside of my lip. But silence is also me quieting my mind. And I use this as an example with youth that I work with.
And I said, “When we’re really listening and paying attention to someone, we can’t also be figuring out, ‘Well, I have to go pick up my son from school. And then I got to get these grocery items. And then I want to pack for the weekend that we’re going to go on. And that I’ve got this project that I really have to do. And oh my gosh, I got to call that person about that project. And wow, I wonder if they’re going to be home. Did I tell them I was going to call them on Monday, or did I tell him I was going to call him on Tuesday?'”
And when I was giving this example in the classroom, one of the youth literally said to me, “You sound like my mom.” And I went, “Okay, great door opener.” And then she said, “And I never feel like she’s really paying attention to me.” And my heart broke. And I realize that if that’s what I’m doing in my head when people are trying to talk to me, I’m still not really listening to them. Even if it’s not coming out of my mouth. So I have to silence my mouth, but I also have to silence my mind and give them all of my attention.
Adam Salgat:
That allows your mind to really absorb what it is they’re sharing with you.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Absolutely, right? I’ve cleared all of that space, and now I can capture what they’re really wanting to talk about.
Adam Salgat:
So after silence, there’s still one more. I’m keeping track here. I’ve got four fingers out. So this fifth one, my thumb, what’s that fifth.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. So that fifth one, actually, Adam, you’re really good at. You just gave me a reflective response, ideally back there. And my response was, “Well, thanks.” Because I was so busy thinking about what I had actually said to you.
Adam Salgat:
It’s all right.
Sarah Weisbarth:
So the first four, I remember attending behavior, acknowledgments, door openers, just that importance of silence. And that fifth one that you’re waiting on, that’s reflective response. Reflective response is really that skill that just moves the conversation forward. Without a reflective response, you have really no idea if you’ve heard the person correctly. And they also don’t know if they’ve been heard. Reflective response either wraps it up or keeps it going. It just depends on where the conversation needs to go.
Adam Salgat:
Okay.
Sarah Weisbarth:
So I bet you’re probably wondering like, “Okay, that sounds great. I understand at some point there’s a pause in the conversation, and I’m supposed to say something.” Right? Reflective response is a thing you’re supposed to say.
Adam Salgat:
Sure.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Do you want to know what a reflective response is?
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. Let’s work on what that actually sounds like.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Right. So reflective response should include a fact and a feeling. In class, we gave you several different kind of intros. Like, “It sounds like…” And insert the fact. And “You’re feeling…” And insert the feeling, right? We’re finding that people stumble over that. I call it clunky, right? Like if I am trying to have a conversation with this person, and I’m trying to really pay attention, and then I’m trying to remember, “Okay. So in class, they told me to say, ‘It sounds like…’ And ‘You feel that…'” You’re probably not really doing a great job of being a reflective listener.
Adam Salgat:
I will 100% acknowledge that has happened to me. Yes.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. Well, I appreciate your desire to want to do it well. And that’s really the first step of that awareness of, “I just want to be a good listener. I want to be present, and I want to be engaged. But now there’s something I’m supposed to say, and I want to do it right or do it well.” So let me give you a couple of maybe simpler examples, “Sounds like you’re really excited about your vacation.” That’s just something you can respond back to someone. They’re sharing about their trip, and you’re like, “Oh, sounds like that’s exciting.”
Adam Salgat:
Let’s talk a little bit about tone.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Oh, okay.
Adam Salgat:
Can we just slightly cover that? Because if I were to say, “Sounds like you’re really excited about your vacation.” You might think I’m being sarcastic.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah.
Adam Salgat:
I don’t want to get too in-depth with that. But the idea here is knowing your tone and understanding your tone, and maybe working on it if you have to.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. And, I think too, when you try to use some of the prescripted examples, they can sound contrived, and sing-songy is my phrase. And might cause people to wonder about your sincerity.
Adam Salgat:
Right. Exactly. So I just bring that up as a potential hurdle that you might need to get over or work on?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yes, absolutely. And I’ll use an example from my youth again. I fall into the, “Tell me more…” And it just rolls out of my mouth. Like, “Well, tell me more.” And I had a young man in class say, “If you ask me to ‘Tell you more,'” and he mimicked me, “one more time, I’m not going to tell you anything.” It was a clear message delivery that I needed to change my tone.
Adam Salgat:
Right. Or maybe find some different words.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yes. Finding those different words is super helpful.
Adam Salgat:
Okay. What else do you have for an example of reflective listening?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. Some other examples of reflective listening… And this one’s a little bit longer, right? This one might be someone that’s come to you with maybe a problem. So this one reads, “It must be difficult to help your mom when she doesn’t understand that she is aging and experiencing limitations.” And that includes… There’s that fact that someone’s clearly talking to you about a problem with their mom that’s aging and is experiencing these limitations. Who knows what they are. If I fall back to my old ways, ask five questions about that. But what I’ve really acknowledged is that it’s difficult that this person is struggling with this issue with their mom.
Adam Salgat:
Right.
Sarah Weisbarth:
So this is the other one I like too. How about, “You sound so proud of passing your science test”? Does that sound like a reflective response to us?
Adam Salgat:
I think so.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. So they pass their science test. That could be the fact, and I’m hearing pride, right? So, “Oh, you sound so proud of passing your science test.” I like this one too because I feel like it starts to instill that sense of feeling good about yourself when you label some of those really positive feelings that you notice in others. I use this one at home a lot, “It seems like it’s fun for you to play your video games with your friends.”
Adam Salgat:
So you get to use that one at home a lot?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yes. You can reflectively respond about playing video games.
Adam Salgat:
All right. Well, it’s good to know.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. You can reflectively respond actually just about anything. And going back to sometimes feeling like it’s difficult to have those door openers, if you actually just shift when there’s that moment where you’re supposed to say something into some sort of reflective response, even if it’s, “That’s cool.” Or, “That’s exciting.” Or, “Wow, that’s difficult.” Those are literally two-word reflective responses. I use the that’s, almost as the fact because someone has just shared something with you. I don’t really have to repeat it back to them. And when you say the feeling, it almost always trigger someone to say, “Yeah, that is really difficult.” And continue on with what they want to share. And if you go even in the positive direction like, “Wow, that’s really exciting.” Then they are like, “Yeah, it is. For this reason.” It just prompts them to keep sharing more with you, which is the point. We want to create that connection with people.
So that reflective response, guys I can’t tell you enough. It doesn’t have to be complicated. It doesn’t have to be contrived. You don’t have to take mental notes about what the person is telling you in order to know exactly what to respond back. Just really try to identify with that feeling. That’s where we’re going to generate that empathy with others. And that’s where that connection grows. All of these skills have to be done sincerely. Adam, you talked about tone. We talked about our behavior. If we don’t do it in a way that conveys that we actually care, which is where that empathy comes in, it’s just really going to fall flat, and we’re going to be listeners that aren’t really genuine. So these skills are doable. We just have to do them in a way that shows that we care.
I’m going to turn the tables on you. I’m going to ask the questions now. If I asked you what you would find difficult about reflective listening, what would you say?
Adam Salgat:
I think we covered it a little bit, but definitely, the part where there’s that open space and I’m expected to say something, and it’s difficult to know what those words are. I have a hard time deciding what to say. Almost like we talked about, are your brains trying to think about, “Okay. I should be listening to what they’re saying so I can reflect it back at them.” But I’m listening to, or I’m thinking about what they’re saying, and I can’t actually listen to what they’re saying. So, it’s difficult to find those correct words.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. Because it’s almost like we want to say something to make it better.
Adam Salgat:
Right. And I think at times you can fall. Especially in maybe a stressful story or a story where they’re sharing open feelings. We fall back into the really simple sayings of “It’ll be okay.” Or, “You’ll be fine.” But I think we fall back into those because it’s natural. It’s the way, quote, people talk, quote. We don’t mean it to be negative. We don’t mean it to be rude. But it’s just what people say. So as you’ve explained through reflective listening, if we can start working on things that work for us, we can change our behavior, right? So we can be better listeners.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah, absolutely. And I want to go back to what you’re expressing about how it can be hard when someone’s sharing something deeply about themselves. I think it can almost be uncomfortable for the listener. And I heard you say it’s natural to fall into, “It’ll be okay.” We have this desire. We want to fix things for people. We want people to be okay. We want to comfort. And it’s almost like, “Okay, if I just say ‘It’ll be okay’, then somehow I’ve done the right thing.” Because it can be uncomfortable for us to experience people experiencing their feelings and sharing them with us. And you summed it up perfectly. I feel like reflective listening gives us the tool to sit with people in those moments and just be present with them. And just let them experience what they’re experiencing. And we just be there in a supportive role.
Adam Salgat:
I think knowing that we’re not there to necessarily solve or give an answer can change the way that you actually listen to the person and respond to them. Because I know personally, if my wife comes to me with something and she’s talking about it, like a work situation, it’s natural for me to just start saying, “Well, you could do this.” Or, “Have you done this?” Or probably not even in those nice words. I’d probably say, “You should do this.” And honestly, she’s not looking for me to solve it. She’s an adult. She knows how to solve her own problems. But when she comes to me, I think that’s my role. But I need to understand that’s not always my role. Sometimes your role is simply to listen. And if I get back to reflective response, that’ll keep my mind open to that.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yep, absolutely. And I think your wife will appreciate you connecting with her that way.
Adam Salgat:
Okay, Sarah. So to wrap up our podcast today, tell me again what the five reflective listening skills are.
Sarah Weisbarth:
We have attending behavior, acknowledgments, door openers, silence, reflective response, and all of that’s wrapped up in empathy.
Adam Salgat:
Empathy always being key. Right?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Always key.
Adam Salgat:
If anybody has any questions about reflective listening or anything to do OCL, how can they get in touch with us?
Sarah Weisbarth:
They can reach us on our Facebook page at Michigan OCL Alumni. And remember, alumni, you are the message.
Speaker 1:
You’ve just listened to the OCL podcast. Thank you for joining us. For additional resources and engagement opportunities, find us on Facebook at OCL Michigan Alumni or ourcommunitylistens.org.
